Pretty sure Paris Hilton wasn't pregnant ?

[bathtublove]

Another celeb surrogacy I'm presuming !

If you can find a buyer, go ahead.

After all, it doesn't affect you.

Ill believe it's a free choice the day wealthy women like Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian start acting as surrogates for poor women.

The torment that people with infertility issues go through is truly awful.

But surrogacy is morally abhorrent, just because you cannot have a child does not make it ok for you to pay another woman to have one for you.

The opportunity for abuse is so obvious I cannot understand how people cannot see that.

Even if anecdotally your know some for who it worked well, surely it's obvious that as a method of producing children it is rife with moral and legal issues for everyone involved.

In the past you adopted or made peace with your infertility - is that not enough anymore? People are so entitled to have children that if they have enough money they are allowed to make it happen. Disgusting.

The only people I know who have used surrogates are gay men. There's been a huge change in expectations and norms about having children among my gay male friends (the rich metropolitan ones, anyway) over the last 5 years.

They seem to pay far more for the eggs (110lbs, IQ of 140+, Harvard sophomore, carefully defined ethnicity etc) than for the surrogate (usually a poor Latino or black woman from the photos). I am instinctively uneasy about it, though question my unease at times. These are not men with fertility issues, of course, so it usually seems to work the first time. They also seem to have a very strong preference for boys, which I also find disturbing. (After making lots of embryos in the US, it's easy to create a 2 dads 2 sons family.)

That quote from Paris about wanting to enjoy their first year of marriage without a baby and then have one in 2023...

So entitled. She got married in her 40s. She can breezily wait a year just to have fun safe in the knowledge she can order a baby to come at a certain time like it's toilet paper from Amazon.

It does sound like she just didn't want to be pregnant. She just got married and hasn't been with her husband very long, so when was she supposedly trying for a baby? She basically says that they weren't trying, they had embryos in storage were enjoying themselves.

She went straight to surrogacy, as many wealthy women do because they would rather outsource the risks and discomfort of pregnancy into a poorer woman.

It's disgusting.

She is entitled to live her life that suits her. I'm in my 40s if I met someone this year I too would like a year or two before I'd consider have children. And if I then discovered I couldn't and could afford a surrogacy then I would.

Who are you to dictate how another person should live. Noone dictated it to you did they.

Who are you to buy people?

Their is opportunity to abuse in most systems right. If we had euthanasia that would carry a risk of abuse. Same with surrogacy, organ selling whatever it is. There is no perfect system that is never open to abuse.

They have made selling organs illegal yet it still happens.

Their is opportunity to abuse in most systems right

That's literally an argument against them.

Its not really buying a person when aid person is your genetic make up. Would it be easier if it was some artifical womb someone paid a company to help grow their child?

If someone wants to sell their womb and someone wants allow that person to carry their child then it'd a mutual transaction.

Even if it was made illegal there will always be a black market for it, then peolle would fake being pregnant so it wouldn't be found out.

So what has been achieved...nothing.

Its not really buying a person when aid person is your genetic make up.

That literally makes no sense. A person is a person no matter what their DNA.

And at any rate, you'd be buying two people: the baby and the mother. Or maybe you'd only be renting the mother out and risking her health and even life, but that doesn't matter because DNA.

Even if it was made illegal there will always be a black market for it, then peolle would fake being pregnant so it wouldn't be found out.

Ah, the "human rights abuses happen anyway so why bother trying to make them harder" argument. Always convincing, that one.

Look end of the day I strongly believe we have the right to decide what we do with our bodies I dont give two fucks what someone else decides to do with their body, I really don't. Nor will I judge them for it or say its disgusting and so on.

If someone is being exploited or forced of course that is wrong and there should thing sin place prevent and stop it.

I don't think anyone is judging fertility (or infertilty) Surrogacy isn't a medical cure for infertility. In fact Surrogacy creates medical needs for 2 extra people - the "carrier" and the baby.

There is almost always a power imbalance between commissioning parents and surrogate. Celebs usually have lots of rich, famous friends, interesting none of them seem to offer to be a surrogate for them.

As @PuttingDownRoots mentioned hundreds of babies were left in Ukraine for months during the pandemic when intended parents from all over the world couldn't travel to collect them. Some of them were cared for in hotels for months before they were able to be collected. Most of the news stories focused on the anxious/heartbreaking wait for the parents and the lengths they had to go to to get there (one couple were anonymously donated use of a private jet to get to Ukraine) There was no mention of babies in hotel rooms dormitory style, for months with their basic needs met but not the love, nurture and bond with a parent.

@Spectre8

'Every system will be abused'

Using your organ black market for example. I'd be curious to know how often you think this happens in the UK? Do you think people walk into the NHS hospitals with a kidney in a cooler and no one asks questions?

Also if it was found to occur then it can be prosecuted, it will always be illegal. If some selling of organs is allowed and some isn't, then abuse is harder to determine because people will take steps to appear legitimate.

Your vision of total free choice for all also doesn't allow for the reality that some people are far more vulnerable than others. Women in abusive relationships for example, if their partner told them to be a surrogate to make money, what power do they really have to say no? What about migrant women who are on expired visas and someone blackmails them into 'agreeing' to surrogacy?

It's incredibly privileged to embrace the concept of 'free choice' and then stop thinking about it at that point. There are many factors behind peoples choices that mean they aren't free.

I imagine because kidneys are vital organs. If her other one fails in the future she will die (unless someone sells her a kidney or the NHS can find her one).

I imagine because kidneys are vital organs. If her other one fails in the future she will die (unless someone sells her a kidney or the NHS can find her one).

You can die or be permanently disabled by pregnancy/birth also.

Or be rendered infertile.

40-45000 people die each year in the uk due to kidney failure.

There are fewer than 100 maternal deaths.

One is statistically more likely than the other.

people die each year in the uk due to kidney failure. There are fewer than 100 maternal deaths.

Age will play a huge role in that. Presumably many of these deaths will be later in life whereas deaths in 20s/30s are not generally common anyway. So in terms of quality of life years, its not a like for like comparison.

What about disabilities, life limiting conditions and secondary infertility resulting from pregnancy and birth? These are not inconsiderable.

We don't allow anything comparable to women renting wombs for money. So how can we ethically justify renting wombs and selling babies. It's repugnant.

Do you give two fucks about selling babies and a power imbalance that risks the health and life of poorer women for the benefit of richer ones?

Your argument is a gross oversimplification that ignores all context. You also seem to think a person automatically owns another one if they share some DNA, since you think in such cases, paying money for them wouldn't be buying them.

The irony of you calling out someone for having a blanket opinion 😆

She's entitled to live her life as it suits her? Surely you mean she's entitled to live her life how it suits her so long as it doesn't potentially harm anyone else. A claim that cannot be made about surrogacy.

"In 2019, 754 women died from pregnancy-related causes in the U.S. Another 50,000 to 60,000 women each year suffer severe harm to their health due to pregnancy, labor and childbirth."

msmagazine.com/2022/02/13/pregnancy-childbirth-women-death-maternal-health-adoption/

Affluent couples shouldn't be allowed to pay woman to take this risk for them.

Spectre8 doesn't give two fucks.