Apologies another dog thread

[Babsexxx]

When in the actual fuck is this going to end?! Absolutely heartbreaking!! What is possessing people to either A. Get dogs they cannot contain?!! B. Get dog breeds totally beyond there control/capacity!

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-woman-20s-killed-horror-28942502?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main&fbclid=IwAR0QT61C9BluDRapdjz5AB6ry4dkoKI7Io-WFFe1A055Lrfv4P4XoWCylj8

I've also had sighthounds that were perfectly safe with their own cats but absolutely not safe with 'other' cats, and whilst it is possible to train them to ignore cats, it's not possible to train cats out and about not to ambush dogs from under cars and hedges - if you've never had to try and peel a furious cat from the wire muzzle and skin of a terrified greyhound, whilst one yowls and tries to deflesh and the other screams and tries to run, you won't understand what a hazard they can be!

My mum has just got a rescue greyhound. Was walking him along a cycle path and a cat jumped out and properly tried to attack him. My mum got pulled to her knees (dog was on lead). Greyhound got shredded by the cat and also brambles. Apparently the cat is known for ambushing dogs in that area. It has a collar on so is a pet.

I know there are lovely dogs of all breeds and responsible dog owners but the awful ones are terrifying and this will keep happening while we say 'nothing can be done' - I feel so sad for the boy that was killed in his friends house ; it used to frighten me to send my kids on play dates if there was a dog.
I've had too many encounters with scary or badly trained dogs to have much patience now for the insistence I have to just live with them outside:

The time some arsehole lost control of her dog who leapt into my car with four strapped in babies/toddlers and bounced around the seats until she finally came over and shouted at me that it was just a fucking puppy when I was screaming for her to get it out the car.
The terrifying dog that clocked me and started hurtling across the road while I flung myself into the car
The dog that ripped my skirt jumping up while it's random owner laughed at its friendliness
Etc etc etc

Oh yes,cats can ambush dogs!
Fearsome when riled.
I was attacked by a cat trying to protect a young Lurcher, Still have faint scars from it on my inner knee where it bit and clawed me.
Doctor thought I’d been attacked by a fox!

Farmer said it was “Vicious “ and had gone for him, too, in one of the barns.

It was found dead a few weeks later, maybe a brain tumour or something like that- He definitely was fearsome.

Feral, but a good ratter.
Detested dogs, even well mannered on lead ones like mine!

Cats can be really nasty. I have known people to have house cats that suddenly turned. One chap had to trap his cat in a room as it was going crazy. I think it did have something wrong with it in the end, but this guy was terrified.

There is a cat that keeps coming into my garden that scares the crap out of me. If he is on the fence, and I walk past, he will jump and go for me.
I should not be scared of a cat in my own garden

No one is saying 'nothing can be done' though.

Sure, threads like this are full of impractical solutions and ideas from people who are not canine professionals, are not aware of whats going on in the industry ... and it feels like nothing can be done.

But actually the dog industry is filled with excellent organisations trying (and slowly succeeding on many things) to change things, there are groups and committees and those organisations that are consulted by government to advise and help shape legislation.

What fucks that up is which government gets voted in, and when the public kicks off screaming for fast action on a problem that requires thought and planning, and you get stupid, ineffective legislation like the dangerous dogs act illegal breeds shit.

Here is something you can if you have a dog and kids, if you have a dog and visiting kids, if you have kids who may have friends who have a dog or family members who have a dog...

www.thefamilydog.com/stop-the-77 - yes, it is american based but yes its still applicable here and a really useful resource.

What else can you do.

If you have a dog - learn about dog behaviour/body language basics from a reputable source (hint, social media videos featuring people with dogs on prong collars or shock collars or tight slip leads probably aren't reputable sources) A great book for everyone, kids and adults is Lili Chin's Doggie Language www.amazon.co.uk/Doggie-Language-Lovers-Understanding-Friend/dp/1787837017

If you DON'T have a dog but your kid is likely to come across dogs and does not live in a bubble... still get that book, ask your library for it if you don't want to pay.

If your kids are not old enough to read the above book, then teach your kids NOT to expect to, or ask, to stroke strangers dogs. The old advice was to ask the owner, I would no longer do that as many owners will not recognise the signs that their dog is uncomfortable, and many dogs ARE uncomfortable when trapped on a lead or in a tight space! No need to teach them that dogs are nasty or dangerous, just teach them that the DOG may not like it, may be scared or uncomfortable.

If you have a dog - this is really important as little kids often assume all dogs are like their dog and so they can run up, grab, hug, kiss etc etc, and theres a strong chance their own dog is only just tolerating this, so a strangers dog may REALLY object, particularly if startled.

When kids are old enough to read some about dog body language, teach them to ask the owner, THEN if the owner says yes, ask the dog - getting the message through that the owner may say yes, but the dog may still say no.

Greeting a dog - don't stand rigid and stare at the dog and stick your hand out, or reach out and grab. Stand sideways on, or sit (if in a room with seats!) or squat if you're stable and can do that without wobbling and it doesn't put your head at dog head height, and invite casually, and scritch the chest or shoulder IF the dog approaches and asks for contact (Which you'll know if you read the book).

Teach kids they touch dogs with ONE hand only, never two hands on the dog, this is an easy way to stop full on both arms around the dog hugging.

If your kids are going to other peoples homes, ask if they have a dog, ask to meet the dog first - if they don't want to do that or are wary or you don't like how the dog behaves (or how they behave around the dog, or how their kid does), no play dates there.

Watch out for people who order their dog around by yelling and pointing or hitting and dragging - dogs may tolerate this sort of behaviour from domineering adults, because they fear the repercussions, theres a history of fear and punishment associated with those adults. They don't dare.

However when little kids emulate that behaviour they've seen from the adults, and there is no adult present... the dog still associates this context with nasty shit happening but doesn't quite have that 'I don't dare' association... and so reacts to defend themselves... with dire and tragic consequences.

Theres more but I'd be here all week!

@WiddlinDiddlin that is a long winded way of saying nothing can be done.

I do not know the details but I am fairly sure the dog walker killed recently was not doing the things you described.

Children should be taught a certain caution around dogs but I do think in a lot of these attacks - I can’t say all - they do appear to have been unprovoked.

And you say But actually the dog industry is filled with excellent organisations trying (and slowly succeeding on many things) to change things, there are groups and committees and those organisations that are consulted by government to advise and help shape legislation

What are they trying to change? They would be wise to publicise this because I can’t think of anything. All I, and the rest of the public see, is more and more deaths. And while I agree knee jerk reactions are unhelpful, doing nothing (which is what the current situation appears to be, to a layman’s eye) is surely even more unhelpful.

Without wanting to speak ill of the dead, it appears the dog walker was uninsured, relatively new to the job and not nearly experienced enough, and walking more dogs than any company would insure - she was also transporting them in her car, not a suitably kitted out van (again, insurers would not touch someone doing this).

It was a freak accident though, caused by having too many dogs and not enough experience, rather than being caused by inherently dangerous dog breeds or even inherently dangerous individuals.

Whats going on behind the scenes currently:

Regulation of the dog training industry, to improve animal welfare and reduce the risks to people and dogs from those promoting dangerous methods, unsound practice etc etc.

Banning of shock collars (And ideally following Frances steps in banning all aversive training collars) - again, dangerous training that increases the chances of a dog behaving aggressively.

Importation control - banning the importation of ear cropped dogs, which helps us police those cropping dogs illegally here, and slows down the influx of protection trained dogs typically being sold mainly to ignorant ego fuelled idiots... There is a close link to serious and organised crime, and those who crop dogs and sell/breed/import such dogs.

Also changes to the ages at which puppies can come into the country and what vaccinations and checks they should have had - to reduce the influx of sick puppies (communicable diseases like brucellosis and rabies) and dogs raised in such poor situations/poor genetics that they are likely to experience behaviour issues. There are also changes to the rules on how rescue dogs are imported.

Constant battles to amend the dangerous dogs act so that it is more practical and workable, easier to enforce and actually useful.

Attempts to change how dangerous dog incidences are approached - namely the dog being held and assessed prior to euthanasia rather than being shot on scene - dead dogs do not have behaviour you can assess and they do form useful evidence in many cases.

Constant efforts to provide information to educate the public on all manner of dog related issues to promote sensible sourcing of dogs, sensible ownership of dogs, safety around kids, and to get that education more mainstream.

Changes to sentencing around animal welfare crimes - thats a win, theres now a much longer max sentence of 5 years rather than just 6 months. That might not seem immediately related but those cruel to animals typically are those also creating dangerous animals, certainly when it comes to dogs.

Unfortunately the current wanky government plus a worldwide pandemic rather stopped a lot of things in their tracks, and we're really having to fight to get things back on the table.

Well, I can understand the argument re changes to sentencing for animal welfare, and while that’s a positive thing, it isn’t necessarily going to make any dramatic difference. It’s true that those who are cruel to animals are also sometimes involved in creating dangerous animals, but it’s also possible to be cruel to animals without being involved in dog breeding / fighting.

A lot of the other things you’ve posted seem to relate to animals coming into the country but with a lot of the breeds that have been involved in deaths they are already here so it feels a bit shutting the kennel door after the (dog) has bolted. Likewise with not euthanising on the scene - an attack has happened by then.

The thing with the ‘educating the public’ is that it assumes the public are doing something wrong. Most aren’t. Most dogs are nice. Unlike others I haven’t had any notably bad experiences with dogs: a couple of puppies jumping up but that’s about it and while I know MN isn’t overly tolerant in the real world I find most people accept pups are still learning and plus they often aren’t as big as their adult counterparts so it is one of those things. I don’t for a moment think we have to bring in any extreme sort of laws regarding muzzles or leads all the time for most dogs. But surely there’s a fairy obvious pattern when looking at the breeds involved and thinking about whether we want these breeds is sensible?

Well it's great there is some movement but I resent being forced to have to take my chances in public if I go out to parks or woods or even just down the road because anyone can buy a dog with no oversight or accountability until it kills someone.

The two loose greyhounds that I managed to catch both had collars with telephone numbers. They were duly returned to their very apologetic owners.

Of the ones I've dealt with (usually reported as greyhounds but most often longdogs - sighthound x sighthound, or lurchers) I can think of only two who were pet dogs, one had escaped following a car accident and the other bolted after being chased by another dog - all the rest and I am talking upwards of 50 dogs over 20 years, were stolen and dumped or just dumped coursing dogs. We see it a lot in rescue in rural areas unfortunately, the dogs are disposable, if you're about to get caught by police or landowner, just disappear and leave the dogs.

I forgot to mention changes to the laws around who requires licencing to breed, with the overall aim to promote welfare, stop people breeding on a commercial scale and deal with those dodgy backyard breeders churning out puppies from horrific situations. Hopefully with changes to how such laws are enforced and managed as currently, what we have is not well managed at all.

I agree. I saw the Welsh government is publishing legislation to regulate tattooists! I mean - it may need doing, and I realise we can think of more than one thing at a time, but is this really a priority? Nobody goes out and gets tattoo'd against their will while out for a walk - it's your choice to have one. I wish they'd use their resources to regulate dog ownership instead!

Governments, and the Welsh gov. in particular, thought a GREAT idea to provide farmers with a diversification option, was the commercial scale breeding of puppies. Be a puppy farmer they said, churn out mass produced, low welfare, puppies-as-livestock bred from stressed out bitches in barren environments, missing out vital socialisation and habituation and passing on fear and anxiety issues from birth... it'll cause no problems whatosever... kerching.

Those farms need planning, that planning is granted by a person who may never have seen a dog in their lives let alone understand what a bitch and puppies needs and what harm is caused by them not having those needs met.

We have to be really careful about urging governments to 'do something' as without expert guidance, the 'something' is more likely to be dire than it is useful.