I cannot believe the conversation I just had with my dickhead ex about his Xmas plans. I need impartial views on what I should do.

[Rantaboutmytwatofanex]

Ex and I have 2 daughters, both under 7, we split when they were a newborn and 2 and have been attempting to co-parent since.

There is a long and colourful history of him being a mediocre father, and he has only had them for Christmas one half day (his choice) but has insisted on Christmas this year as it falls on his weekend. I'm obviously gutted to miss out for myself, but I'm excited the girls will spend the day with their dad.

Knowing what he is like I asked what he had bought them and if he has a stocking sorted etc.

He has bought them both 1 inappropriate gift each (stuff that he wants, and the girls have no interest in and are far too young for) and he said he isn't pissing about doing a stocking for them as he never had when he was a kid. He has no extra food in because they can have leftovers when I pick them up and he will just do pizza.

They won't miss out because I have stuff they need/have asked for/will like, and I know they will be really grateful for what they recieve at his house, but the things he has aren't even toys and are totally unusable for the girls.

So my choices are:

Leave them to have a no effort Christmas with their dad.

Provide the stockings they have here which will include treat food and small toys and books and give him all the santa key, reindeer food etc that make Xmas magic for little ones.

Tell him to fuck off and I just do Xmas as normal here and keep them.

I think I'm swaying towards the second option as they do love him, but I also resent the fact I have to put in the effort because he can't be arsed.

I've already spoken to him and he will not be making any additional effort at all, so that's not an option.

Any advice about what I should do?

the more you update the more I think they need protecting from him and his shit ‘parenting’ as much as possible

They do need protecting from him but OP is in too deep, she can't see it. The fact that she's even contemplating sending them to him, knowing he's got no presents for them on Christmas morning and no proper food is quite mind blowing. OP, you need to take charge.

@Dumpstertruck is right.

You are, unwittingly, teaching your girls to be doormats - telling them they are responsible for an ADULT'S happiness; and adult who tells them that when a boy hits them it's because ehe cares about them.

Do you really want them to absorb these messages? Because they will, and they will live by them, tolerating horrible, abusive boyfriends and partners, and blaming THEMSELVES for every awful thing that these men do to them, and they won't even know why they put up with it.

Their heads will tell them they're being stupid, but they will still go back for more because deep in their bones that is what they have been taught is "true".

Please stand up for them now - yes, they're tiny; yes, they deserve the magic of Christmas; yes, they love their daddy - but honestly, the best Christmas present you can give them is to gently let them know that daddy isn't perfect and it's not their job to look after him.

Keep them at home. If you feel you must let them go, don't cover for his selfishness.

Could you not keep them Christmas Eve, Christmas morning and then send them to him. That way they can have all the magic and he still sees them and isn’t alone?

I agree with this.

Your girls should not be responsible for their dad's feelings, which are entirely within his control.

He is failing as a father at the most basic level, despite you making every effort to help him and facilitate their relationship, and then acting as though the little he is being forced to do doing is some great imposition.

At their age I think I'd try to brush it off as "daddy is being silly" when he says ridiculous things like he can't afford to heat his home because he has to pay you child support.

But for now, if your priority really is your children's welfare, they deserve to have their usual magical Christmas with you and not have it ruined by their deadbeat dad. Just tell him you've changed your mind, they will be staying with you for Christmas because he's made it clear that he isn't willing to make an effort, and they will see him another time. If he wants Christmases with them, he can find himself a solicitor and get court ordered access.

And as they get older and are better able to understand, make it clear that his feelings are not their responsibility because they are children and he is an adult, and so he is able to improve his life and do something to make himself feel better, whereas they are children. It is parents' responsibility to look after their children, not the other way round. Not unless the parents are old and frail and have already spent a lifetime looking after their children.

Never mind about it being Christmas day, I wouldn't want my kids in that environment full stop. Ever.

He uses them as props for his performance of parenting for the outside world.
He uses them as weapons against you, knowing you'll put them first.
He uses them as bargaining chips to score points against you, in a nasty little game that only he is playing.
He uses them as excuses to buy himself nice things.
He uses them as fledgling winged monkeys to drag you down.
He ignores them when they're with him.
He lies to them.
He teaches them dreadful things (boys only hit you coz they like you).
He lets them know that they are an expensive inconvenience.
He doesn't care if their feelings are hurt - he doesn't see them as people.

He DOES care if YOUR feelings are hurt - this is the whole point. This is what he lives for. He thinks he's making you sorry you left him. He's actually just making you sorry you met him.

Leave them to have his version of Christmas day. As you are picking them up the evening of that day anyway you can manage the rest with your stockings, magic key and reindeer food (please make sure this is actually animal friendly!) before they go or after they come back.
Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of compensating for your ex's choices. The kids need to form a relationship with each of you as you are, not a false/created version of one of you. As they grow up and choose where and who to spend their time with, they need to make that choice based on reality. If you fill in where you see he is lacking, you are creating a false reality for them.

don't fall into the trap of compensating for your ex's choices
I agree but at the same time I think it's best not to underestimate the lengths that he might go to to make you do the work so that he can get the credit, he will be quite prepared to let the children suffer if it punishes you and makes you look bad. He has already shown that he has little concern for their well-being it's all about him looking good.

I definitely thought option 1 initially but having read the whole thread I have concluded that your only option is option 3.

I know you're doubting yourself and you say they love him. You want them to have a relationship with a loving father and you will facilitate that. I truly understand that.

What you are in fact facilitating is for for them to have relationship with an abusive cruel father. Surely that's not what you want?

You owe it to them to protect them from this monster. Keep them at home and surround them with love and Christmas magic.

One last thing I would say is that you matter too. You have given birth to these girls, you have loved and nurtured them and you deserve to see their faces light up on Christmas morning.

Put all this guilt to one side. Gather them to you, keep them safe and have a wonderful family Christmas together.

I never really considered he was trying to do it at my expense, but I suppose it does seem like that

Parental alienation is always about making the other parent miserable, not about trying to look good to the DC at that parent's expense. There are just too many easier ways to make oneself look like 'SuperParent' to one's children. Alienation is about punishing the other parent, either for having the temerity to end the marriage or as a way to 'expiate' their own guilt by trying to make the other parent look 'guilty' too (of bad parenting).

I know of more than one ex-couple where there is specific language in their custody/visitation agreement regarding not 'bad mouthing' each other and that doing so is a violation of the agreement and may lead to loss of custody or visitation rights.

It's acknowledged by the courts here that Parental Alienation is very damaging to the children. I'm not sure if the same language is or can legally be used in the UK in parenting agreements. It may be worth consulting a solicitor to see if it's worth formalizing your informal arrangement.

Be brave and let them experience his Christmas.

Tell them dad doesn't like Christmas so don't be surprised if he doesn't do lots of pressies or a big dinner.

Send them with a present from you, so they have something good to play with.

And tell them you'll have another Christmas Day when they're back.

They have to realise at some point he cba. The joy will come back when they have a do over

He's a weapon in all honesty @Rantaboutmytwatofanex .

You need to get yourself a solicitor.

You need to gather your paperwork and keep every single communication he makes to you so that you can use it in court.

You need to be able to live your life not under the shadow he throws at you because you can't move on with your life because of what he might say to your daughters about god knows what.

You need to set up proper court ordered visting/overnights/school holidays etc. or no access at all based on his behaviour and him not being a positive role model for your girls.

Get it all legally sorted and don't let yourself be brought to a similar position again. Your girls deserve at least that much.

I think it's become pretty obvious why this guy IS alone. FGS what partner/friend would tolerate a Christmas with a miserable, Scroogy, selfish twat like that? And the little girls aren't his support humans.

That's sort of the way I'm thinking, but it's a double edged sword. But the flip side of the coin is that with NO formal agreement OP is free to withhold contact if he's acting like a shit to her, mistreating the girls, or poisoning their minds. With a formal court agreement she's stuck sending them according to the schedule no matter how he's behaving unless she wants to go back to court and try to amend the agreement.

I know that in the UK the parenting orders don't seem to have the same 'bite' they do here in the US where there can be jail time and/or fines for violation. But even so, that UK order can still tie a parent's hands when the other parent is a real shit, especially if they have the time and money to drag the parent back to court for any little quibble. That's why she needs to see a solicitor, to see if it would be worthwhile or if it might cause her more trouble than it's worth.

I agree with @AcrossthePond55 a formal arrangement confers all the obligations on the RP with no corresponding obligation on the NRP to even turn up.

Why on earth would OP pay a solicitor to make her own life harder?

She already suggested a more structured approach to contact and he paid a solicitor to write that he only wanted an ad hoc arrangement.

So she could do all that on top of all her other worries about having cancer, presumably money isn't plentiful and end up back where she is now but with the added restriction of having to make her girls available and him turning up only as and when he pleases.

He's a weapon in all honesty
sadly this is true, he is unable to cope with his ex partner's 'insubordination' and his priority in life is now to get revenge on her for not wanting to be in a relationship with him, I think I'd slowly freeze him out and drop off his radar

@Rantaboutmytwatofanex

I agree with what all the PP have said about parental alienation and I feel that you do need to go and see a solicitor and tell them what you’ve told us.

Make notes so you don’t forget. And if he buys the kids a microwave, make sure you take it home with you!

In regards to Christmas Day and the kids: as a nurse, there was a run of years where I wasn’t home for Christmas Day. These things happen in healthcare professions. My (at the time, very young and similar in age to your 2) children went with the flow and we had Christmas on Boxing Day. Was it the same? Yes, because Santa knew I would be working so delivered the presents for Boxing Day. Could I have just “joined in” when I got home? Not really, 12 hour shifts from 7.30 to 7.30 meant I didn’t see the kids at all on the actual day as they were asleep when I left and asleep when I woke up.

Children adapt. But what I would never do is to allow someone (the twat in this case) to emotionally blackmail them and use them as supports to prop up his own insecurities. By doing this, you are setting your children up for a lifetime of believing that men are allowed to emotionally abuse, gaslight and manipulate women and that women are supposed to just lie down and take it.

Tell the twat that if he’s lonely at Christmas it’s his own fault because if he was a better person, then he would have friends like me, who would welcome him in to their home at Christmas.

Actually I have changed my mind and agree with PP above. Keep them at home. He can go and fuck himself. You only get a few magical Christmases as a child.

I find this post incredibly sad. I wouldn't send my kids there at all as their needs are not being met I'd want supervised contact as he is an unfair parent. I'm not sure how you go about that but I'd get agencies involved in an effort to make that happen.

Having children does not give anyone the blanket right to never be alone at Christmas. He deserves to be alone. Tell him you tried to think of someone as stingy and miserly as him that he could share Christmas with but all you could come up with is a mirror.
tell your children if they are worried ‘does dad do a lot for Christmas? Does he get decorations and nice food? Play carols and go for Christmas walks? Give you fun presents? No- well that says to me that he doesn’t really want to do Christmas so it’s better he’s alone since you do want to do Christmas. Think about how much effort he puts into his photography /other hobby- that’s what people do when they care. He might say it’s sad he will be alone at Christmas but his actions say he really wants to be alone. And you deserve an amazing Christmas too for being such wonderful caring children, you shouldn’t have to pretend you don’t want Christmas either to sit with someone who acts like they hate it.

pointing out where I have been going wrong.

This is going to make me sound really stupid, but I was in a refuge once upon a time, I did the courses and have applied what I learned to relationships, but I just never thought to apply it to my ex as we aren't in a relationship.

I took time out yesterday to do the online freedom programme again, and I have just been so blind and stupid. He is so obviously abusive.

I spend lots of time building my girls up, teaching them about boundries and how to love themselves, I have so many books, we have had so many conversations, and I've been giving them so many mixed messages because I didn't apply any of it to their dad.

I was so focused on not damaging them the way my older ones are damaged that I've been doing it a whole new way without even realising.

So I've decided on a few things

1 - they aren't going there for Xmas, I told ex, he kicked off so I have blocked him for now.

2 - contact won't be at his house, he can have soft play or similar for now until I think properly how to move forward

3 - he isn't going to have them while I have my operation.

4 - when my dp moves in to help me after my op I'm going to talk with him and my kids about making it permanent, we have wanted to for quite some time but I didn't want the girls dad making them feel bad about it and causing trouble, I've known him for over a decade we have been together over 3 years, he literally drops everything to help me and my kids and was hugely supportive when I had cancer the first time around. I'm not putting my life on hold to appease my ex.

Not the result I hoped for, but given what's been pointed out its the best option I think.

Thank you all for opening my eyes here. I really do appreciate it.

(Oh and don't worry about the reindeer food, I use oats and cake sprinkles so it's environmentally friendly 😊)

Oops it cut off the - thank you for pointing out where I've been going wrong - from the start of that

💐Well done OP!! You’re doing exactly the right thing!! You are a strong fantastic woman!!

With respect OP, whilst I’m pleased you have some clarity and are making a decision, I do t believe unilaterally removing access is right for your kids, and (although no one gives a shit) your ex.

kids deserve to see their parents, even if those parents have differing views on what parenting entails. If he’s a danger, fair enough. If he’s not, I think you’re doing the wrong thing.

Good on you. That sounds like a plan. Best of luck, and you know where we are.

Thank you, I don't feel very strong, I feel like a bit of an idiot at the minute, and I'm gutted at what my poor girls have been through because of my decisions.I'm not removing access entirely, he will still see the girls, over the Christmas period it will be supervised, and then I intend to speak to a solicitor to discuss things to see what is the best thing for my girls.Come the start of January he will refuse to see them as I can't do the drop offs for probably 6 weeks and he won't tolerate my dp doing it, so realistically I'm just starting it a couple of weeks early.I know it's not ideal, it's not really what I wanted to do but I just really don't have a perfect option right now unfortunately.I'm going to feel guilty, and my girls will suffer to some extent regardless of what's decided now so I'm just trying to minimise their hurt.