Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 34

988 replies

MagicFox · 23/10/2022 21:29

Welcome all πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
Thread gallery
80
Vigneau · 12/11/2022 13:33

Greenshake · 12/11/2022 11:03

Just to be clear, I haven’t suggested that any area is signed over or written off.

But any negotiation will always include land.

All wars are ultimately based on the fear of losing land. **

blueshoes · 12/11/2022 13:37

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 12/11/2022 12:15

Khersonians back in march, and Khersonians now. The difference in welcoming occupiers and liberators πŸ₯°

twitter.com/noelreports/status/1591395389722497026?s=46&t=j0rw7vsggVVciRab5Os5OQ

Khersonians had been waiting for so long. Glory to Ukraine πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

I saw a guy lying down in front of the Russian Z vehicle in the video from March. That's so brave.

Greenshake · 12/11/2022 13:37

@Vigneau I think it will come down to it, I haven’t said I agree with it. I don’t have any comprehensive answer. This is why I keep making the Crimea point as this, in my view, will be a problematic red line.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2022 13:51

Greenshake · 12/11/2022 13:37

@Vigneau I think it will come down to it, I haven’t said I agree with it. I don’t have any comprehensive answer. This is why I keep making the Crimea point as this, in my view, will be a problematic red line.

Whatever happens to Crimea at this point is problematic.

EdithStourton · 12/11/2022 13:57

MissConductUS · 12/11/2022 11:12

The US has at least as much of a national image of WWII heroism, which also tends to underplay what anyone else did, perhaps moreso than the Brits who at least acknowledge the role played by the US.

Honestly, I find this a bit offensive. As a student of American and military history, I don't find this to be true at all. This impression may have been created because Hollywood produced so many WWII movies that were focused on keeping up the morale of American civilians and naturally tended to focus on the battles American forces were engaged in. We also did the bulk of the fighting in the Pacific theater against Japan, which was a hard slog indeed.

My impression of the American WWII myth is based on more recent Hollywood dramas, which can be quite grating on British nerves. I accept completely that this doesn't reflect the historiography, and I also accept that wartime films have a propaganda element to them which will of course emphasise what the home nation is doing. I'm reasonably well read on the war in Asia, and I'd never belittle what the US did there.

I'm just fed up - offended, if you like - by the constant lazy references in some circles in the UK to the 'fantasy image' of 'British heroics'. All nations have their national myths, and while the British one tends to edit out imperial troops, there's no shame in emphasising that we did stand up to Hitler, and that the Battle of Britain was a very courageous feat of arms, and so on.

That was the basis for my comment.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2022 14:04

EdithStourton · 12/11/2022 13:57

My impression of the American WWII myth is based on more recent Hollywood dramas, which can be quite grating on British nerves. I accept completely that this doesn't reflect the historiography, and I also accept that wartime films have a propaganda element to them which will of course emphasise what the home nation is doing. I'm reasonably well read on the war in Asia, and I'd never belittle what the US did there.

I'm just fed up - offended, if you like - by the constant lazy references in some circles in the UK to the 'fantasy image' of 'British heroics'. All nations have their national myths, and while the British one tends to edit out imperial troops, there's no shame in emphasising that we did stand up to Hitler, and that the Battle of Britain was a very courageous feat of arms, and so on.

That was the basis for my comment.

Hollywood movies of WWII vastly outnumber ones for WWI. There is something in the logic of this which isn't just about it being more recent.

The UK is guilty of its own mythology on WWII so it was hardly singling out the US. And its a comment I've seen originally come from Americans...

Hancox432 · 12/11/2022 14:47

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 11:42

It's true, you are, maybe a bit unfairly!

The negotiation is in the hands of Zelenskyy and his advisors though and they have said that they'll negotiate when pre-Ukraine borders have been restored.

The negotiations also have to be backed up with an extremely big stick because Russia has proven endlessly that its word is good only as long as its in its own interests, and the moment they think there's advantage to breaking it - they will.

Is the whole issue then not about Putin. But about a deeper issue within Russia. Even if pushed back to pre 2014 borders and Putin is overthrown, we could end up in a much worse situation with a new president. Whether it's negotiated now or after troops are pushed back this still won't fix the deeper issues within the Kremlin that will make this sort of thing more likely again in the future.

Is there not a chance that they are pushed back, Putin is overthrown and then someone worse comes in and tries again. Personally I think Russia remains weaker with Putin in charge after this embarrassing war than it would be if a new worse leader comes in.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 15:20

Vigneau · 12/11/2022 13:33

But any negotiation will always include land.

All wars are ultimately based on the fear of losing land. **

It could include reparations and returned children and prisoners more than land, which Zelenskyy has said he won't negotiate over (at least at this stage)

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 15:22

@Hancox432 Interesting point that we may be better off with the heavily weakened Putin than a new, vigorous leader.

I suspect that Putin might very well not be in power all that much longer though. Prigozhin and others are not folk who have mercy for the weak.

BreadInCaptivity · 12/11/2022 16:10

twitter.com/defencehq/status/1591370280492060672?s=46&t=Z52fZXQWSPm49JxHP_Dayw

Cold weather kit being supplied by the U.K. to Ukrainian soldiers.

MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:41

Dropping in with a new thread space before we're lost: Ukraine Invasion: Part 35 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4675926-ukraine-invasion-part-35

OP posts:
MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:42

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 15:22

@Hancox432 Interesting point that we may be better off with the heavily weakened Putin than a new, vigorous leader.

I suspect that Putin might very well not be in power all that much longer though. Prigozhin and others are not folk who have mercy for the weak.

Prigozhin and Kadyrov have been mutually chummy and lining themselves up (not very subtly) for a while

OP posts:
Hancox432 · 15/11/2022 21:17

Poland currently verifying the fact before decided on invoking article 4.

Quite what I was expecting to be honest.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread