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Ukraine Invasion: Part 33

990 replies

MagicFox · 11/10/2022 21:24

Starting this at 980 on the other thread because it's late and I might miss the tipping point. We're moving fast at the moment, thanks all for the analysis, insight and company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
blueshoes · 23/10/2022 01:06

Thank you @Naem and @MissConductUS for explaining Israell's position. I understand much better the tightrope that Israel walks on Ukraine between the West and Russia.

MagicFox · 23/10/2022 07:25

@MickRyan reporting on latest developments

In the last 48 hours, reports have emerged of a potential Russian withdrawal from its Dnipro west bank defensive positions. While this may fit General Surovikin’s overall strategy for #Ukraine, it will be difficult to execute successfully. 1/24 🧵

2/ Somewhere in the headquarters of a Russian Combined Army Army in south Ukraine, a staff officer is pulling out his doctrinal publication to plan an orderly withdrawal of Russian forces back across the Dnipro. Why are withdrawals conducted and what are some considerations?

3/ Withdrawals, which are considered a ‘retrograde operation’ in US Army doctrine, are designed to allow a force to disengage from the enemy and redeploy on a new mission or to a new location, while minimising casualties.
4/ This quote from Australian Army doctrine is also useful: “Withdrawal is a task employed regularly during mobile defence or the delay to accomplish the overall aim of resuming offensive action…it should be treated as a routine tactic rather than a harbinger of disaster.”
6/ I know the Russians have not been great at following their own doctrine in this war. But, once a decision is made to withdraw, what are the planning considerations?
7/ First, deception is vital. The reality is however that it is difficult to conceal from the enemy an intention to withdraw. At some point it becomes obvious what will occur.
8/ However, some deception might be achieved by stepped up patrols, increased fire support, decoys, simulating normal activities and communications discipline. For the Russians on the Dnipro west bank, this will be difficult but not impossible.
9/ A second consideration is how to sequence the withdrawal. This includes when and how to evacuate logistic stocks, headquarters, recon elements and ground combat forces. It will depend on where and in what strength the enemy is pressing the force that is to withdraw.
10/ For the Russians, getting this sequence right will be vital. They will have to balance the preservation of their force with using it to hold off the Ukrainian advancing forces. They need enough forces to prevent a rout but not so much that they lose a large part of the force.
11/ A 3rd issue for Russia will be disrupting the Ukrainians ability to interfere with the withdrawal. We should expect to see increased air defence, jamming & artillery used by withdrawing Russians, as well as greater air support. They may also use civilians as human shields.
13/ Achieving control is also about good battle discipline. Tactical leaders at all levels must hold their positions until their assigned withdrawal time. This can be very difficult when there is a strong inclination to move rearwards earlier than the plan directs.
14/ And this battle discipline is more likely to break down as the size of the remaining defending force is reduced. Russian battlefield leadership and discipline in this war has not been great. We might expect the later stages of their withdrawal to be chaotic.
15/ In general, a withdrawing force will want to achieve what is called a ‘clean break’. This is disengagement of the enemy in a way that avoids their ability to follow up and pursue the withdrawing force. The Dnipro River will be a key element of Russia’s clean break approach.
17/ A key part of achieving a clean break is an effective rear guard. A rear guard force can help provide a clean break for the withdrawing force and prevent enemy pursuit. I would expect that for the Russians, the rear guard will consist of armoured and mounted infantry forces.
19/ Ultimately, a successful withdrawal requires excellent planning and coordination. But this is underpinned by good leadership. The concept for how the withdrawal will be sequenced and executed must come from the senior commander.
21/ Given reports of the Russians beginning a withdrawal, we may see how these considerations play out for the Russians in the coming days and weeks. There is much that can wrong for them. And following on their heels will be a determined, aggressive Ukrainian ground force.
22/ The Ukrainians will be keen to destroy or capture as much as possible of the Russian force on the west bank of the Dnipro. Not only would these Russians not be able resume offensive operations in the future, but it would also be a significant strategic influence success.
24/There is nothing in this threat that is not common knowledge in every military organisation!

OP posts:
notimagain · 23/10/2022 08:37

@DesdamonasHandkerchief

A quick further follow up to your comment last night about the Russian satellite launch..there's some fairly objective comment here:

www.nasaspaceflight.com/2022/10/soyuz-2-1v-kosmos-2561-2562/

So it's possibly a repeat of something seen earlier this year, and whatever happened then passed without causing too many ripples, at least in public.

Looking at what the other sides satellites are up to, what they look like and trying to establish their capabilities has been going on for many years.

www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/spysat-and-shuttle-180962872/

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/10/2022 09:37

@MagicFox thankyou. Everyone is rightly waiting for the liberation of Kherson but I wonder how the Ukrainian army will hold onto it in the face of relentless shelling which will surely come. I also wonder if taking Kherson back needs to be timed with the arrival of weapons and defence systems. Withdrawal clearly doesn't mean giving it up.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 09:45

Julia Davis AT juliadavisnews
Meanwhile on Russia's state-funded RT, director of broadcasting Anton Krasovsky suggests drowning or burning Ukrainian children, makes hideous comments about the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, says Ukraine should not exist and Ukrainians who resist Russia should be shot.

This sounds bad. The actual subtitles are worse. This is deeply ingrained in Russian culture clearly, for it to be even remotely broadcastable

Igotjelly · 23/10/2022 10:00

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 09:45

Julia Davis AT juliadavisnews
Meanwhile on Russia's state-funded RT, director of broadcasting Anton Krasovsky suggests drowning or burning Ukrainian children, makes hideous comments about the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, says Ukraine should not exist and Ukrainians who resist Russia should be shot.

This sounds bad. The actual subtitles are worse. This is deeply ingrained in Russian culture clearly, for it to be even remotely broadcastable

It really reminds me of the targeting of the Jewish population in Nazi Germany. Trying to ingrain it so deeply in the minds of the general population that these people are sub-human and responsible for all the ills of society, so as to make atrocities against them almost a public service.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 10:40

RedToothbrush that's shocking. Surely even people on side with this war in Russia would draw the line at drowning or burning Ukr children.
Hopefully the propagandists are shooting themselves in the foot by broadcasting that kind of poison - perhaps more Russian people will come to view their own side as the aggressors rather than the saviours.
They certainly aren't getting their story straight - most of the time they're blaming war crimes on Ukr, this broadcaster is revelling in their depravity.

Hills I did see some Twitter footage of UAF taking three Russian POW's who were surrounded by their army stuff but had changed into civilian clothes. Wasn't sure of the authenticity though.

Thanks for those replies Notimagain I was worried they were going to knock Starlink out - having absolutely no clue how these things work!

notimagain · 23/10/2022 11:07

@DesdamonasHandkerchief

Thanks for those replies Notimagain I was worried they were going to knock Starlink out - having absolutely no clue how these things work!

You're welcome...with regard to your specific concerns it seems (from NASA and elsewhere) that the Russian satellites were put in an orbit that is completely different in it's orientation to that used by the Starlink constellation so that's not the target.

OTOH they did go into an orbit that's a very close match to a US satellite.

MissConductUS · 23/10/2022 11:14

Starlink currently has over 2,300 satellites in low earth orbit. That makes it very hard to attack. It's also fairly easy for SpaceX to launch more.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 12:01

Apologies if this thread has already been linked, it's a day old now, but this is a depressing excerpt:

3/ #Putin is setting conditions for #Russia to continue a protracted high-intensity conventional war in #Ukraine, not a negotiated settlement or off-ramp. Instead, he is setting conditions for improved Russian combat capability over the winter and well into 2023.

Full thread:

twitter.com/thestudyofwar/status/1583626480935845890?s=12&t=E1pkSdyA0Coagj4BTy9OpA

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 12:09

Mobiks in Donetsk oblast are starting to panic, they are being sent into attacks against Ukrainian defences. The level of panic is evidenced from the SBU intercepted call where two men ask their wives to "raise the question on all levels".

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1583962716846190592?s=61&t=E1pkSdyA0Coagj4BTy9OpA

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 23/10/2022 12:09

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 09:45

Julia Davis AT juliadavisnews
Meanwhile on Russia's state-funded RT, director of broadcasting Anton Krasovsky suggests drowning or burning Ukrainian children, makes hideous comments about the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, says Ukraine should not exist and Ukrainians who resist Russia should be shot.

This sounds bad. The actual subtitles are worse. This is deeply ingrained in Russian culture clearly, for it to be even remotely broadcastable

Bloody hell that video is horrific.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/10/2022 12:15

Hillsmakeyoustrong · Today 09:37

@MagicFox thankyou. Everyone is rightly waiting for the liberation of Kherson but I wonder how the Ukrainian army will hold onto it in the face of relentless shelling which will surely come. I also wonder if taking Kherson back needs to be timed with the arrival of weapons and defence systems. Withdrawal clearly doesn't mean giving it up.

I was wondering what will happen to the Ukrainian army too. Hills. If they go in as Russia withdraws, and all the people have been deported/evacuated, might it not be a trap to suck the Ukrainian army in then attack them with bombs or blowing up the dam? As it seems blowing up the dam would mean the water supply to Crimea would be cut off, then are bombs or chemicals from the air more likely?

Am I completely confused here?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 12:25

Another own goal:

⚡️⚡️⚡️ A 🇷🇺 SU-30 airplane crashed on a two-story house in Irkutsk, Russia 🇷🇺. No other details are available at this point.

twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1584136968782610433?s=61&t=E1pkSdyA0Coagj4BTy9OpA

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 12:31

Darth Putin:

Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
ScrollingLeaves · 23/10/2022 12:32

BringBackCoffeeCreams · Today 12:09

^RedToothBrush · Today 09:45
Julia Davis AT juliadavisnews^

Meanwhile on Russia's state-funded RT, director of broadcasting Anton Krasovsky suggests drowning or burning Ukrainian children, makes hideous comments about the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, says Ukraine should not exist and Ukrainians who resist Russia should be shot.

This sounds bad. The actual subtitles are worse. This is deeply ingrained in Russian culture clearly, for it to be even remotely broadcastable

Bloody hell that video is horrific.

I’ve just seen this video RTB and *CoffeeCresms^. It is horrific.

It seems unimaginable that anyone would actually say that on state funded TV. That really is like Nazis speaking.

That man even said old Ukrainian women would give their funeral savings to be raped by a Russian soldier. As for drowning and burning children who else in the world would say something so evil and broadcast it?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/10/2022 12:50

A small side-issue, which I don't remember seeing mentioned here.

Biden has raised the embargo on selling arms to Cyprus, as from 1st October which makes it old news, but apart from annoying Turkey a fair amount there's something else it probably means.

Cyprus can now renew its stock of various armaments – and what they have at the moment is mostly of Warsaw Pact manufacture, and therefore useful to Ukraine. Presumably once new stuff from the US is available to Cyprus the US would be able to buy the old (or do a part-exchange deal), and then send the Warsaw Pact stuff to Ukraine.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/10/2022 12:53

A net-hunt has found me "Cyprus possesses 82 T-80U tanks, 43 BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles, 11 Mi-35P helicopters, 6 Tor-M1 air defense systems, 4 Buk-M1-2 air defense systems, and 4 BM-21 multiple rocket launchers, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies Military Balance 2021. All of these systems are either currently operated or have close variants operated by the Ukrainian military. They can immediately be integrated, even as Ukraine gradually shifts to more modern and capable Western systems."

Greenshake · 23/10/2022 15:49

Hopefully the Wallace/Shoigu talks were positive ones. Apparently there have been comms with the French and Shoigu as well.

blueshoes · 23/10/2022 16:17

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/10/2022 12:01

Apologies if this thread has already been linked, it's a day old now, but this is a depressing excerpt:

3/ #Putin is setting conditions for #Russia to continue a protracted high-intensity conventional war in #Ukraine, not a negotiated settlement or off-ramp. Instead, he is setting conditions for improved Russian combat capability over the winter and well into 2023.

Full thread:

twitter.com/thestudyofwar/status/1583626480935845890?s=12&t=E1pkSdyA0Coagj4BTy9OpA

@DesdamonasHandkerchief That is depressing. Putin is withdrawing from Kherson to fight another day, rather than seeing sense and just getting the F__ out. Then again, I doubt he has a choice as it would be curtains for him otherwise to admit such a high cost failure special operation.

Discussion in ISW about Russian's withdrawal from Kherson and the nova kakhova dam;

Russian forces are preparing a series of delaying actions with mixed efficacy. Russian forces are likely preparing to destroy the dam at the Kakhovka Hydroelectric Power Plant (KHPP), flooding and widening the Dnipro River to delay any Ukrainian advances.[6] Russian occupation authorities in Nova Kakhovka are likely attempting to moderate the resultant flooding; Nova Kakhovka Occupation head Vladimir Leontyev said on October 22 that Russian authorities are lowering the volume of water from the reservoir behind the dam to minimize damage in case the KHPP is destroyed but stayed true to the false narrative that Ukraine, not Russia, would blow the dam.[7] Ukraine has no interest destroying the dam and every interest in preserving the energy supply in newly-liberated parts of Kherson Oblast. Ukraine’s Southern Operational Command reiterated that Russian military leadership has moved their officer corps across the river but left newly-mobilized men on the western bank of the Dnipro River as a detachment left in contact.[8] Using such inexperienced forces to conduct a delaying action could prompt a Russian rout if Ukrainian forces choose to press the attack, as ISW previously assessed.[9] One Russian milblogger noted that the situation in Kherson Oblast is dire for Russian troops, noting that it is ”virtually impossible” for Russia to evacuate troops from the first lines of defense and that only two questions remain: how to withdraw the final front line of forces, and how to explain the withdrawal to the Russian population.[10]

Russian occupation authorities ordered the forcible “evacuation” of civilians from Kherson City on October 22. The Russian Kherson Occupation Administration announced that “all citizens of Kherson must immediately leave the city” and said that all civilians and “all departments and ministries of civil administration must now cross over to the [east] bank of the [Dnipro River].”[11] The occupation administration cited the “tense” situation at the front, “increased danger of massive shelling of the city and the threat of terrorist attacks” and provided instructions for where evacuees can find boats to take them across the river. The occupation administration encouraged evacuees to bring clothes, valuables, and documents, indicating that they do not expect a rapid Russian or civilian return to western Kherson. Russian forces expect to leave the city and are therefore likely trying to depopulate parts of the oblast that Ukraine will recapture, damaging the long-term social and economic viability of southern Ukraine. Russian authorities are likely also making initial efforts to evacuate at least those civilians who are willing to cooperate with Russian occupation authorities and would otherwise be in the path of flooding resulting from the blown Kakhovka dam.

Further down in that twekt:

Southern Axis Update:
#Ukraine’s Southern Operational Command emphasized that #Russian forces are using Ukrainian civilians as human shields when transporting military equipment across the #Dnipro River. /3

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 16:22

Kevin Rothrock AT KevinRothrock
Russian state media claims its "highly trustworthy sources in various countries" say the Zelensky admin is close to acquiring from the UK what it needs for a "dirty bomb." Kyiv would supposedly detonate the nuke on its own territory to turn the world (even more) against Moscow.

Igotjelly · 23/10/2022 16:24

Greenshake · 23/10/2022 15:49

Hopefully the Wallace/Shoigu talks were positive ones. Apparently there have been comms with the French and Shoigu as well.

Can only assume it’s following on from the Shoigu/Blinken talks. Clearly diplomacy is afoot, these sorts of high level talks don’t take place without substantial lower level communication.

Igotjelly · 23/10/2022 16:24

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 16:22

Kevin Rothrock AT KevinRothrock
Russian state media claims its "highly trustworthy sources in various countries" say the Zelensky admin is close to acquiring from the UK what it needs for a "dirty bomb." Kyiv would supposedly detonate the nuke on its own territory to turn the world (even more) against Moscow.

The ultimate false flag 😭

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/10/2022 16:32

@ScrollingLeaves you aren't confused at all, noone can say what will happen, it's all speculation at this point. But I can't see the Russians walking away and leaving it at that.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2022 16:40

Phillips P. OBrien AT PhillipsPOBrien 1h ago
Worth noting that some Russian sources are talking about the Ukrainians pushing again near Svatove. That always worth watching.