Lucy Letby Court Case

[Pebble21uk]

Today has been the first day of the trial, which is expected to last for six months. One thread has already been pulled on the subject. Upon deletion MNHQ said that a thread about the case is fine but please read the rules around contempt of court before posting... these are copied and pasted here:
Publicly commenting on a court case:

You might be in contempt of court if you speak publicly or post on social media.
For example, you should not:
say whether you think a person is guilty or innocent
refer to someone’s previous convictions
name someone the judge has allowed to be anonymous, even if you did not know this
name victims, witnesses and offenders under 18
name sex crime victims
share any evidence or facts about a case that the judge has said cannot be made public

If any of the above take place then new threads will also be pulled. Let's please try and keep it going!

Sky News has a huge yellow banner 'breaking news' top story with the headline
'I am evil, I did this'
Then if you scroll waaaay down to the bottom there is a small box with 'Nurse 'adamant' she's done nothing to harm any of the babies in the case as defence begins.
That seems biased to me. I know it's for the clicks and the sensationalism - but a fair trial should trump that.

The problem with this case is that it is documented by the CQC that the CoC has failings in care across the Trust. They are currently not at the required standards of care according to the latest CQC inspection. The fact that they were stepped down from level 2 care to level 1 makes this even more complex. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and the evidence that is presented. Whether it is judged she did this intentionally (as the prosecution alleges) or whether it was a series of failings in a badly run unit (as the defence alleges). Whatever the outcome of the trial it must be a traumatic time for the parents of those poor babies.

When has trial by the media ever been fair or balanced?

You know if she is found not guilty the same papers will be publishing "wronged angel nurse battled for years to clear her name"

Our media are an embarrassment.

The media are a disgrace. They are not following any kind of best practice or standards. Report the, what seems to be damning evidence, but don't sensationalise it or try to mislead the public. Really annoys me. They are also on the edge of giving plenty of reasons for a claim of unfair trial, potentially letting an alledged murderer to then go free. Apologies if I've garbled, I don't know the legal terms.

The likelihood of a nurse hurting patients is always going to be low, thankfully. But those odds presume a nurse of sound mind. The writer of those notes doesn't seem to perceive herself as harmless by any stretch of the imagination. She's made it very difficult to perceive her as harmless, given how she perceives herself. Are we going to hear about what lies behind that? The word 'anguish' seems a desperate reach.

Possibly, but those notes weren't written at the time of the incidents. They are whays come after. Years after I think. So plenty of time for genuine despair (from a place of innocence) to build.

How does the passage of time in any way explain them? Genuine question.

Despair could, I'm sure, build in a day. How does it make the assertion of guilt less credible regardless of time scale?

There have been plenty of trusts that have undergone enquiries and shut units due to scandals. Unfortunately I would say this is to the point of these occurrences being a well trodden path for the nhs.

There have also been doctors and nurses suspended, struck off, and even charged with gross negligence man slaughter.

I do think such an environment will muddy the waters considerably but it is not a defence. If it was purely a case of systemic failings, this would be handled as such failings have been many times before.

There is clearly something more going on here.

That depends on whether you see the comment on the note as an assertion of guilt. She also said she did nothing wrong on the same note. Which of those is right?

But I would imagine that (if innocent), having this build over years, the mind would possibly start to doubt innocent actions.

I'm not actually approaching this on either side (guilty or innocent) but I do think there is ambiguity here in her writing, as well as environmental factors like years of having this case hanging over her head.

They are shocking the Daily mail keeps popping up on my face book i don't know why but everything they write is to provoke an argument.

I agree with this.

if someone has fabricated these allegations to scapegoat an individual that’s as wicked as the allegations themselves

Of course. It’s only going to be part of the evidence, not determinative of anything in itself

I agree.

And if Countess was indeed that substandard, there would've been a referral made to investigate them professionally after the babies' deaths and poor outcomes and/or they'd be on trial for their own failings too. Staff failures would likely have been identified and made public by now. And yet, the fact is that CPS deemed the allegations and case against LL strong enough to pursue it.

I guess her mental state will come out in evidence, surely she’s been comprehensively psychiatrically examined.

Ive found it slightly difficult reading this case. DD was in nicu & scbu after birth. On scbu the nurse in the room was looking after 3 of them. I found it amazing because in a nursery with healthy babies the nursery worker can only look after 3, and this is a hospital where the babies are poorly & needing a lot of monitoring. Even at the time the staffing felt lean.

Reading about this trial has reminded me how much i hated that i had to go home and leave DD there each night. I can easily see how with staffing shortages, mistakes could have happened, but also that much more sinister things could have happened unobserved. Gives me chills.

If it was purely a case of systemic failings, this would be handled as such failings have been many times before.

There is clearly something more going on here.

That’s all speculative. For the sake of argument it could be that these babies died due to the usual failings but personalities involved put 2 and 2 together and made 6 rather than addressing the true cause of the failings.

Not saying that’s what happened, but it could be.

Having sat on a jury this year and watched a case fall apart the second the first witness opened their mouth, I’d take very lightly the CPS’s opinion on the merits of prosecuting.

The CPS brought 8 murder charges to court and admitted having absolutely zero evidence to display for one of them so Letby has been found not guilty of one charge already. They're not infallible.

They always are. This case is the sort of case they love, given that it involves a young woman. They can bring out their inherent misogyny and prejudice against the young, and report every detail as salaciously as possible. It really is a revolting paper.

Maybe the CPS felt that the case had reached the point of needing closure to end the anguish for the families and stop the ongoing persecuation of a potentially innocent young women. The only realistic way to do that in a case as tragic and complex as this was a trial by jury.

I sat on juries several times and had a very different experience. In fact, it is more often the case they decide not to pursue when it could be reasonably anticipated otherwise.

Here Tthey considered it strong enough to be taken to court. What the verdict is going to be, we shall see.

I'm following this and it is quite triggering as I had a sick baby when born but she wasn't even in the neonatal unit . But it's reminded me of the trauma I'd quite pushed down. This must be so difficult for so many people.