Lucy Letby Court Case

[Pebble21uk]

Today has been the first day of the trial, which is expected to last for six months. One thread has already been pulled on the subject. Upon deletion MNHQ said that a thread about the case is fine but please read the rules around contempt of court before posting... these are copied and pasted here:
Publicly commenting on a court case:

You might be in contempt of court if you speak publicly or post on social media.
For example, you should not:
say whether you think a person is guilty or innocent
refer to someone’s previous convictions
name someone the judge has allowed to be anonymous, even if you did not know this
name victims, witnesses and offenders under 18
name sex crime victims
share any evidence or facts about a case that the judge has said cannot be made public

If any of the above take place then new threads will also be pulled. Let's please try and keep it going!

I agree that it's triggering, and this is a huge amount of coverage falling in the Baby Loss Awareness Week too, so many people must be very emotional about all this. It's tough to read and see everywhere. If they are going to maintain this coverage throughout, I will be checking out and only reading updates sporadically. It's too much for me as a stranger, cannot imagine what the families involved are going through. I couldn't cope if I were in their shoes.

Also, we all know The DM is garbage, too rubbish to wipe your dog's poo with. I wouldn't ever treat any of their vitriolic, sensational articles seriously, they aren't haunting LL - they are vile to just about everyone they write about and always have been, it's just a matter of time before they turn on someone.

Maybe the CPS felt that the case had reached the point of needing closure to end the anguish for the families and stop the ongoing persecuation of a potentially innocent young women. The only realistic way to do that in a case as tragic and complex as this was a trial by jury.

I do not think they have the funds or inclination to make decisions on that basis.

I doubt it given the resource it is taking up

Can anyone remember the case a few years ago when a female nurse was on trial for murdering patients? One of the things about that case was that she'd stolen medicines. I think it turned out that the patients had been murdered but it was someone else!

Here we are. This is why I always keep an open mind about these things. She was charged, so it's not an infallible process.

Stepping Hill poisoning

I'm neutral on the note. I have been through trauma as a child. Seeming to invoke censure or criticism or making even small mistakes can trigger profound self-doubt. Plus I blamed myself for everything and felt I must not be a good person to have such bad things happen to me, which was ridiculous, but I truly believed it to be true at the time. Self-loathing was ever present.

In therapy, I was encouraged to write out the things my inner critical voice/extrinsic voices would say and then write another list of a more rational response so:

'I'm so bloody stupid, I can't do this simple task' becomes 'I am struggling with this task, but if I keep practicing I will get better at it'. This was encouraged rather than broad statements like saying 'I am/am not stupid'

I don't keep diaries or notes much anymore (thank god for no longer being young) But at my absolute lowest, when I used to do them, the bad ones resembled a river of haphazard incomplete sentences, and I would ignore the advice to be specific and hyperbole massively.

So I would write nonsense like: I am a shit mother/person (broad statement)
(Missing context: My ex is having a go at me over some trivial mistake with the children's lunch or something)

or: It's my fault and my kids would be better of without me, they're not safe.
(Missing context: DS ran into the road before I could catch him and he narrowly missed being hit by a car)

But say now something did happen with one of my kids, some random accident and my notes were seen with the above statements...it would look pretty damning.

That's not to say LL notes aren't also part of a picture indicative of guilt. I have seen programs where killers or serial rapists write down their thoughts and actions during their crimes. But my mind is open.

It will be interesting to see more in-depth evidence for the prosecution later and how much this evidence will fit in with a built up picture later.

@DysonSpheres I just want to acknowledge you're very sensible and articulate post!

P.s. pleased to hear you've moved from such intense negative thoughts and feelings.

When was the note found?

Is it correct she was arrested once and released and then arrested a second time? I'm assuming that they searched her residence both times.

@DysonSpheres I do the same thing. I write snippets of things. It's a way to clear my mind.

Also on the same piece of paper she wrote - I haven't done anything wrong.

So why does one sentence hold more weight than another?

That was poorly worded - of course one sentences holds more weight. What I mean is on the same piece of paper she writes things that directly conflict with one another - so I don't see how it can be used as evidence.

It's much easier to imagine a guilty person saying they're innocent than an innocent person saying they did it.

Is it?

Yes I really believe so. Much easier motives to imagine. One is much more likely than the other.

There have been many cases of innocent people confessing under pressure from the police.

Because this sentence is subject to interpretation too, she may have genuinely believed she wasn't doing anything wrong at the time or that she had the right to do so, or that it was best for them and she was 'saving' them from poor care or a lifetime of health troubles. Who knows. The post it not may be chaotic but there certainly is a way of reconciling these two statements as above.

No process is ever infallible. The fact she was charged and CPS considered the case strong enough is that, a fact. It's also a fact they didn't bring a case against any other staff members at the Countess, or the hospital itself. She is now subject to the fairest possible (yet again, not infallible) court process. These are the facts.

If the note is a cbt exercise I wonder if there will be evidence from a therapist at some point in the trial.

The note itself seems to be pretty poor evidence to me and presents statements which support both the defence and prosecution. Most of the newspapers seem to have only presented the bits that support the procecution.

That note is desperately sad. Whatever the cause, she was clearly under huge stress and pressure.

I'm glad the jury hear all the evidence before considering their verdict. I can't understand people saying that they think one way or another at this stage - none of the evidence for the prosecution or defence has been given yet, so they can't possibly know.

You worded this better than I did! That's what I was clumsily trying to say.

Hope you aren't ever called up for Jury Duty

I’m not sure the evidence of a therapist will have much legal standing. A psychiatrist, yes.

In many police interrogations there are multiple denials and sometimes an admission. When they walk out of the room it is invariably considered that the admission of guilt was true. Unless a false confession has been made, it is far more likely than someone would lie about not having done it. And without hearing from a psychiatrist, it's difficult to know but it seems more likely that a mind in flux would occasionally glance upon the painful truth than fabricate a very painful fantasy. Her motive seems to be from the notes that she carried out the acts a kind of punishment to herself. In any case, an extremely damaged narrator. Very hard to believe this was all brought on by police charges.

I’m not sure the evidence of a therapist will have much legal standing. A psychiatrist, yes.

Maybe in terms of pre trial assessment etc you'd need a psychiatrist but I'm sure any evidence from a therapist could be used if it indicated guilt/innocence.

Very hard to believe this was all brought on by police charges.

I disagree with this. Having known someone charged with a serious crime which came 'out of the blue' to them, they subsequently took their own life directly after a police interview.

A therapist wouldn’t be able to make any diagnoses, I wouldn’t have thought - but they could give evidence about whether notes of this kind are a therapy technique.

I don’t know, it’s all extremely murky and seems in no way cut and dried. I hope that everyone involved is getting support as it must be extremely difficult.