Lucy Letby Court Case

[Pebble21uk]

Today has been the first day of the trial, which is expected to last for six months. One thread has already been pulled on the subject. Upon deletion MNHQ said that a thread about the case is fine but please read the rules around contempt of court before posting... these are copied and pasted here:
Publicly commenting on a court case:

You might be in contempt of court if you speak publicly or post on social media.
For example, you should not:
say whether you think a person is guilty or innocent
refer to someone’s previous convictions
name someone the judge has allowed to be anonymous, even if you did not know this
name victims, witnesses and offenders under 18
name sex crime victims
share any evidence or facts about a case that the judge has said cannot be made public

If any of the above take place then new threads will also be pulled. Let's please try and keep it going!

Why have Lucy’s colleagues moved jobs in the meantime? Seems a bit fishy to me all round.

She’s been kept in custody for ages too. I don’t deny her note they found is worrying but that could be any young woman especially if a relationship has broken down, she’s depressed and worried about her future. It looks like at 32 even if she is released from custody if found not guilty her chances of meeting someone and having a baby could be very slim. Her ex boyfriend called her quirky but lovely (I think) and a friend said she was lovely or words to that extent.

So if you were going to give a baby insulin in an NNU without being detected, how would you do it?

Can we try to stick to facts in the thread. I understand why some are desperate for her to be not guilty as the thought of someone, let a lone a female nurse deliberately trying to hard these tiny baby is so abhorrent that we will not allow ourselves to believe it.

Both prosecution and defence agree that exogenous insulin was administered to baby F deliberately. From the expert today it's clear it was as an infusion, and looking at the serial blood glucose results, almost certainly from the tpn bag as blood sugar rose when it was off for line change etc.

Someone tampered with that bag. If not LL then who.

Also I found interesting is that there is one "normal" glucose level from the night shift LL was working, a single signature of LL, which was highlighted today. Prosecutors I imaging will suggest she falsified this record. I wonder if we will see any more evidence of false documentation going forward.

I do understand that crime is a peanut-crunching entertainment to some people this thread really must stay neutral or it will be deleted.

Rather than patronising posters with twaddle, why not consider that some people don’t have access to live feeds as they are at work.

As for sticking to facts - there is hard evidence that the insulin was not naturally occurring. Thus far, there is no hard evidence as to who was responsible.

campingwidow. The complicating factor is that apparently the TPN bag was changed (around midday I think) for a stock bag, which of course can be given to any baby. It's been said that this bag too must have been contaminated, as the hypo problem did not resolve until that too was discontinued that evening. It really is very perplexing.

@NNUJan May I ask you about the new stock bag of TPN

I'm guessing that it wouldn't have been used straight out of the fridge and would have been allowed to warm up before use? Or maybe not as it goes into the baby in such small quantities?

If the bag needs to warm up before use where would that happen - in the treatment room ?with post-it saying ''for baby F''. Or by the cot-side

Just thinking about when it stops being a random bag for any baby and becomes baby F's new bag. And the opportunities for introducing insulin into the next bag in a discreet manner

It is perplexing. IDK the additional unexpected risks of being caught in the act of contaminating a second bag when the line tissued could have been avoided by just abandoning the planned assault

🙄🙄🙄

Yes it seems unclear whether the bag was changed or not. It seemed some say it was and others not.

Agree that there have been several different versions of what happened to the old bag when the line tissued - the un-named nurse yesterday afternoon was adamant that procedure was to discard the old bag and giving set to prevent infection but a previous nurse described just disconnecting it until the new line was inserted. Also LL seemed to imply in a police interview that there were 2 bags

Two bags contaminated and to the same degree apparently.

Presumably the bags are sealed so if you were going to infuse insulin into one without it being obvious, how would you do it?

Could someone with medical knowledge explain the differential markers between synthetic and natural insulin?

Not sure about neonatal ones, but others have an injection port. It could be as simple as drawing up the insulin from a vial and injecting it through the port.

Very helpful thanks, so fairly straightforward.

It's definitely correct practice to discard any fluids attached to a long line if the line needs to be changed, and attach a new bag and line. TPN is treated as medication, so the bag specifically mixed for Child F will have a prescription attached which is signed by 2 nurses when it's started. If it were changed for a stock bag that would have to be prescribed on the drug chart. be
it would be perfectly easy to spike an infusion bag with insulin. There is always an injection port, as someone has suggested.

But wasn't LL off shift when the TPN was changed because the line was tissued?

If she was off shift then she couldn't have contaminated the second bag like she allegedly did the first bag.

It was the original TPN put back on after the line was changed? It's not very clear to me. The nurse that was on the stand said that it would have been changed but there's no notes to back this up.

Just noticed we are nearly at 1000 posts. Can the OP or someone else start or a new thread and link it, before we reach the limit.

Ex Paediatric nurse... I've never ever used a stock bag of tpn- it's prescribed daily according to the child's blood levels and very specific.
Not sure what the policy is at that hospital but if possible we would have reconnected tpn if end of line had been kept clean eg using sterile non touch technique and putting a clean end on while waiting for a new line.

Presumably lots of people had access to the bags. All the nurses and doctors on the ward, plus presumably people at the pharmacy where the bag was made up. Was there a live report anywhere from Wednesday where the other nurses testified about this?

"Your female"

Why use that phrase instead of just "she"? Very odd.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4685481-letby-case-part-2

Started a new one as it's very lose to closing

No Live feed from Chester Standard on weds 23rd. Fairly brief report from Tom Mullins BBC [NW] with little detail of what happened with the TPN bag. There's someone else on twitter with Moritz in their name who live tweets but can't find them ATM.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4685481-letby-case-part-2

Exactly. It would be completely unacceptable to continue using the original bag & giving set, but you never know. There will be a "paper trail" though, as any TPN has to be prescribed and signed for when administered. Hopefully this will be clarified.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23146323.recap-lucy-letby-trial-thursday-november-24/

According to the testimony of the nurse above, the bag would have been changed to a stock bag from the fridge, so maybe it differs between hospitals.