DD1 has just moved back into the family home and is causing chaos

[drivinmecrazy]

DD1 (21) graduated in June. she had a job in her university town which means she has only recently returned home.
She came home about three weeks ago. I left a few days later for six weeks and am now in Spain.
That left DD1, DD2 (17) and DH.
DD1 then came out to stay with me for ten days as a way to reconnect after three years away.
She's incredibly independent, opinionated and selfish. TBH I was, sadly, relieved when she went back home.
Since then I've had DD2 constantly messaging me about her, often in tears about what her sister has said to her.
DH, for all his tough talk when DD1 not there, just gets sucked into her side every bloody time.
It's got to the point that I cannot have a private conversation with him without DD1 being present.
This evening o have resorted to asking DD2 to write him a note to put on his pillow asking him to phone me from work tomorrow to discuss things.
I just don't know what to do and am dreading going home in a few weeks if it's still a war zone at home.
Honestly DD1 manipulates him so much that he can't see that DD2 is really struggling.
We all had a talk a few weeks ago about how it will be a big adjustment for us all living together again, and acknowledged that it would be tough on all of us especially DD1, who really doesn't want to be living back at home in an ideal world.
I'm feeling a mixture of frustration at all of them not being able to communicate and relief I'm not there!

Sounds like my sister. Not very confident but covers it with strident opinions and outright bullying. Years back she was staying with our mum and bullied her terribly. In the end I had to stand behind mum while she set some grounds rules about behaviour, starting with 'this was your childhood home, but you're an adult now, it's my home so my rules and you will show some respect.'
she stormed out (not for the first time) but was soon back as she annoyed the friends she ran off to.

Think they call it tough live.

I'm sure you meant, why isn't their father intervening in his daughters rows?

Lose your phone for at least a week. They’re all grown ups. Let DH sort it out this time.

DD1 is an adult. I'm afraid it's time for some tough love. You do need to talk to your DH and agree what the issues are and what you are/are not prepared to accept in terms of DD1's behaviour. You then need to sit down with DD1, not with DD2 present as it might then feel like you are all against her older sister. Be specific with DD1 about your expectations of her and be clear that the alternative is for her to find her own accommodation. Realistically this would probably mean a room in a shared house due to exorbitant housing costs. DD1 would soon find she needed to modify her behaviour if she didn't want her housemates to require her to leave.

I know it can seem harsh, but in the real world DD1 would not get away with rudeness, selfishness etc without there being consequences. Letting her off the hook now won't do her any favours.

All you have to message is...
Missing you, give me a call tomorrow when you are on your lunch break.

I have had this with 2 children. One we had no issues and the other, everytime they are home I want them to move back out again.
I believe they have bpd (runs in family) as they can be nasty one minute and laughing the next. Swings from rage to laughing to crying to boredom. Other risky behaviour as well.
There isn't a lot you can do from where you are, but you need a plan long term otherwise you will all suffer. As others have said MH is no excuse for this behaviour and if they behave like this at work, they will lose their job.

Is it possible your older daughter is autistic? This is absolutely no disrespect to anyone autistic. I have learnt that often what appear to be controlling behaviours and mental health issues can all actually be an element of unmet needs in an autistic individual.and not what they originally appeared to be ( a mental health condition for example).
I have learnt that the stereotypes are so wrong and there are so many people who don't fit what we thought looked like the behaviour of someone autistic as they don't tick certain boxes - and then it turned out they actually were. It takes a whole new way of relating and communication and then things can totally change. If your daughter is Autistic she isn't necessarily coming from an intentional place of malice. I appreciate I'm not in your home. All I know is that in my own situation I misinterpreted so much until I later realised why. Hope all works out ok x

If DD1 is so ‘independent’ why have they moved home?
Clearly they aren’t very mature but they are totally behaving like an ungrateful brat & they need to move out because your dependant child needs you more than they do right now!
Tell DH straight that he needs to tell DD1 this & I can guarantee the 1st thing that happens is DD1 says they need money to do that! Help them financially, if you can, but after that they are on their own & they need to grow up!!

Tell her to move out.

I lived a difficult childhood and didn’t feel safe in the family home with a mother, who favoured my bullying brother. A brother, who enjoyed physically hurting me and mentally destroying me. I had a workaholic father, who died when I was this ‘hard to handle’ age and my mother instead of comforting me was cold and vile at times.

I understand that your dd1 had a lot going to process and it doesn’t sound as if she has been able to do so and much as you’ve tried a couple of things, she is probably emotionally stuck at age 16. However, this doesn’t excuse her behaviour.

Due to my experience, I don’t think waiting for NHS therapy is a viable option. I managed to get some NHS psychotherapy with a clinical psychologist age 21 by which time I was in deep, deep depression and had been suffering from depression for many years. Tbh despite going for a year, it barely scratched the surface. I didn’t really become the much wiser me today until I had some amazing therapy in my 40s when I started to tackle my CPTSD. This therapist worked with me for 4 years and used various techniques including hypnotherapy. I have had other therapy since of shorter duration btw as I got to the end of the road with this one and continue to do so periodically.

To put this into perspective, before encountering her, I saw two clinical psychologists, another psychologist and several counsellors.

I hope you understand I’m not using my story to try to beat you up, rather to explain that waiting for the NHS isn’t a good option IMO. I really would look again and find someone, who has excellent boundaries to see if they can work with your elder dd. Perhaps psychodynamic therapy didn’t work with her because it was too short to really get to the root of the issue.

Your other dd probably has PTSD as well and I think all of you would benefit from therapy to be able to create good boundaries with her and move from this disordered family dynamic. My thoughts are that if you don’t, you may have to accept that your children will not be able to be in the same room as each other and may even not want to be in contact with you.

I am sorry what I am saying is so strong and coming at a time, when in reality you need calm and to collect your thoughts as your mum is so poorly. I actually think if they cannot find some kind of calm, the most obvious solution is to get your 21 year old to return and spend the remainder of the time with you in Spain. You could perhaps lean on mumsnetters to give you some support and help you navigate your relationship with her.

Your family is very dysfunctional and this needs unravelling with expert help. Your husband is a real problem and needs to grow a backbone and some emotional intelligence. Where is his loyalty to you and DD2? What is his logic?Your poor DD2 has been enduring behaviour from your DD1 all her life, let's not pretend or deny that. You saying she copes is just shirking your responsibility to caring for her mental welfare. DD1 is a complete bully under the guise of her 'mental health problems'...no excuse for unkind, entitled, selfish behaviour.

I know someone whose elder brother has ruled the household in various ways all his life...all members a bit scared of him and wary. The bloke has a temper and says cruel words, has been violent many, many times to his sister causing physical health problems. The father has never stood up to him. The sister [now in her 40's] has had , and still has, many problems because of the situation and has nearly had a breakdown. The damage may not be obvious until years later...but don't think it doesn't take it's toll at some point in life. Usually at times of intense or long term stress.

Look after your DD2. DD1 needs to live elsewhere.

Any chance you could fly home for a few days, yes your mums illness is important but someone needs to take your youngest child’s MH into consideration. You seem more focused on the eldest at the detriment of your youngest. Your eldest knows she can wrap dad around her little finger and is using it in her favor.

Again I'd like to thank many posters who have replied.
There's a little bit of truth that applies to our situation in each one.
Today I did manage to have an uninterrupted conversation with DH where we agreed that there were certain areas we have to address with both of them.
One thing that's come out of it is that both DDs want their relationship to get back to the closeness they shared in the past.
They used to be really close, them against the world and we'd love them to get some of that back.
So we're resolved to working on that for now.
Previous posters suggesting the best thing would be to get back home, really it's not possible or what any of us would want.
I'm where I have to be, and if I known nothing else I know that they all support me in this situation

You can turn the message alert ticker off in settings so she won’t see it pop up.

This ☝️ I get that it’s difficult with previous mental health issues, but you and her father need to put clear boundaries in place. No one commits suicide because they can’t treat family members badly without being told to find alternative accommodation. No doubt given the history, she will respond to boundaries with histrionics, but they will settle if you don’t reinforce them by giving in. It seems your youngest daughter was happily living at home and all was well until your eldest returned. It really is very unfair on her to allow her older sister to steam in, cause all this disruption and even deliberately keep upsetting her. Tell your eldest to treat you all with respect, lay off her sister or find somewhere else to live. That is not kicking her out, it’s simply laying out reasonable terms for her to live at home. No one in other areas of her life is going to put up with her shit. If her boyfriend’s parents adore her, it shows she is capable of treating people well when she chooses to do so.

Gosh, you have a lot to cope with. Is DD1 capable of living away from home? Is her stay at home a short term between school and career? Is she working? Looking for work? It sounds like she has too much time on her hands, and is trying to displace her sister. If she can work, she should be looking for work. Actually getting out an looking, not cruising the internet waiting for the perfect job to land in her lap. We had a friend who's son came home and spent his days on the couch, and generally being underfoot. My advice to him, was to tell couch surfing son to get out of the house, from 9-5. Didn't matter where he went, what he did, just find someplace else to be during working hours. He did, and the son did, and he eventually got a job, and back onto his own feet. Having his own job gave him back a lot of self esteem, and helped with his relationship at home. She shouldn't be allowed to come home and take over. It is home, but not hers.

I've not read all this but ... Get back home and when you do start the flat hunting process with DD1! I expect you and your husband can assist with monies towards deposit and first month's rent. Then she can presumably claim housing benefit towards her rent. She needs to start to look for work locally. Good luck with it all. Two of mine went to Uni in Glasgow. Neither came back home lol! Daughter is a Solicitor, now married with 2 kids. Son is a Lead Product Designer in London, earning 'shitless loads of money'. His words. Just bought a million pound house with his partner. Shove her out the door and say you are very proud of her 🙂

I agree with @HardLanding absolutely.

I also believe that you and your spineless rather weak DH are currently - I'm sure totally unwittingly - providing DD2 with an ever increasing belief in her lack of worth and a - possibly unrecognised yet by her - deep resentment of her parents, the very people meant to love and protect her, who whatever excuses they make to themselves, don't give an actual fuck about the emotional damage they're facilitating being caused to her if it means they have to assert themselves to challenge DD1.

I'm truly sorry that your Mum is so ill - but you're going to have to make different arrangements regarding her at least in the short term if you don't want to have a totally screwed up DD2, who I'm quite sure isn't as sanguine as you believe about her mother only being available by phone call when she desperately needs her support in person.

Sometimes priorities can be truly painful, but though I realise this will seem harsh - your Mum has lived her live; I've no way of knowing if it was a hard or happy one. Your DD2 on the other hand has her lifetime ahead of her and you and your DH are now in the position of moulding the foundations of a neurotic, angry one, or a secure, relaxed one.

And you need to find the backbone to tell DD1 that she has to leave as she can't accept the level of kindness and control of her mouth and behaviour that you clearly explained before she moved back in, would be required for her.

She survived long enough away from home to get a degree: she'll survive just fine again.

Sounds like she’s on the spectrum. Has she ever been assessed?

Lulu49 I think has hit the nail on the head.

Everything OP describes sounds like a misunderstood individual who has multiple unmet needs and is actually autistic. Despite how unpleasant her behaviour is, she too will be suffering a great deal as an undiagnosed autistic person potentially. Alot of behaviour like this has real reasons behind it. The mental health problems may actually not even be that. Autistic people are often massively undiagnosed and in the first instance diagnosed with mental health conditions - when it actually isn't that. I really hope you can consider this possibility for the sake of everyone, including your older daughter. ♥️

I’ve just read it all- I hope your conversation insisted on Dh changing his messages notification while you talked. I’d have called him at work- called reception if needed and asked to be put onto him and told him you are supporting our adult child to bully our 17yo, you don’t get to not call me and then say oh I’m at work.

And yes again to the poster who said many who are Autistic are misdiagnosed as bpd.- when they aren't bipolar. I feel alot for everyone in the family including your daughter who really has unmet needs here. I don't believe she is an evil manipulative bully at all. The behaviour is damaging and something has to change imminently,.BUT there is always a reason, always.

I second accessing private counselling. The NHS are useless these days. I paid for my own for years. I found an excellent counsellor who helped me see alot myself with regards to autism and it going under the radar for years in many families. I'd suggest finding a female, experienced in seeing many Autistic people, with an open mind so as not to inflict any further damage on your daughter ( who is very possibly misdiagnosed as bpd at present). Good luck x

Did you phone DD1 an tell her if this keeps up she will be out on her arse?

She isn't a child any longer and needs to start behaving like an adult, if she can't do that in your home she can go elsewhere.

They used to be really close, them against the world and we'd love them to get some of that back.

That might not be possible, sometimes someone hurts you so much you can never get back.

I'm going to sound harsh here. DD1 needs to learn that it is not acceptable to emotionally and mentally abuse her sister. Complex PTSD and self-harm are not an excuse to harm others. It's so easy to tiptoe and give in to kids with MH issues because you want to keep them alive and happy. At 21, I would assume she is still under CAMHS. Contact them ASAP if you haven't already and explain the situation. If she isn't currently struggling with MH or self-harming then the issue is more one of house rules and acceptable behaviour. She is possibly struggling having to be back at home after the independence of Uni and you might want to talk about that but otherwise you need to explain expectations and also have a serious chat with your DH. He needs to support you and you need to agree on a plan together as your DD1 will take advantage of any weakness if you lack a united front. Don't give in to emotional abuse. It's going to sound truly horrible but threats of harm or suicide are frequently designed to abuse emotionally and are never your fault. That isn't to say the person doesn't mean them but it is their issue and unlikely to be something you've caused. If such threats are made, take DD1 to the nearest hospital with a CAMHS Crisis Team where she can get prompt support.

One thing that's come out of it is that both DDs want their relationship to get back to the closeness they shared in the past.

Or that's your DH's take on it and the most painless thing for you to agree. No confrontation, same shit. It's easier to think that they both are brilliant and want to get on with one another if she can manipulate him to believe it.

As to PPs claims about DD1 being autistic, are autistic people manipulative? In order to be manipulative you have to be able to read other people (e.g. target being a wet lettuce) and press their buttons. Autistic people are known for not being able to read cues in human behaviour well. They can't often read sarcasm and other subtleties, let alone weakness in somebody's character.