NC because I'm ashamed of how I'm feeling

[MigraineLevel9000]

Please if you have 5 minutes to read and reply, I ask you to do so. I really need help.

Where to start 😩

I have the most clever, funny, interesting, soon to be 6 year old little girl.

She is also making me want to throw myself off a bridge.

I feel like I spend all of my time asking her over and over again to do the same basic, easy to do tasks. I ask her nicely, she won't do it. I repeat the request firmly, she won't do it. I make it very clear this is the last time I'll ask, she usually begrudgingly does what is asked if her. Something that should take 30 seconds turns into 15 minutes of nonsense.

She talks back to me, but she is erudite and has fantastic vocabulary, she would almost make you doubt that what you're asking her is reasonable. She has an answer to everything.

She is incredibly energetic and sporty, this isn't a laziness issue it is pure stubbornness.

She's sharp as a tack, very witty and likeable. She had good friends, is happy at school and achieves well. But her poor teacher 😩 the entire first year of school was constant messages home, being pulled aside at school pick up by her teacher with the days latest nonsense. With exactly the same complaints I suffer with at home.

Her teacher even said she almost feels gas lit some days, because my daughter is so polite and calm when she's openly defying you and point blank not listening to whatever is asked of her. You so question yourself!

The teacher also commented that she is doing remarkably well at school considering she often decides she's not doing the work, gets up from the table and walks off, generally being an imp. If she actually applied herself she would do incredibly.

She is kept entertained, in plenty of extracurricular clubs, she swims, she does ballet, she has lots of time at home doing crafts, loves to draw, but fuck me she is just a nightmare to live with.

I'm now at a stage of daily migraines, I dread spending the day with her. Isn't that awful? I feel sick typing it because I can't convey how much I love this child but I'm done in.

I've just put her in bed. She's asleep, I'm in tears on the sofa because yet again I've only gotten 1/10th of the things done today I needed to because every single step was met with pure opposition. It's like wading through mud.

Please, tell me I'm not alone, tell me it ends?

Better yet, tell me how the hell I make this better.

X

I too think you’re conversing with her far too much when you’ve asked her to do something. As others have said, she is using conversation as a delaying tactic.
I’d definitely introduce a rewards chart to see if that makes any difference at all.

She sounds like a really smart girl to me, I'm sure it'll level out as she gets older 😊

This. I wouldn't be asking my five year old over and over again just to be ignored or argued with. You're the parent.

And yet you seem unable to. Who hurt you, baby?

Have one quite similar, and I find this behaviour wanes for quite a while if I go to immediate consequences. So no fannying around with asking nicely lots of times, just a heads up on what we need to do and when, ahead of time, then a reminder 5 minutes before, and then a confident request to do it.

If she doesn't, then I give an immediate consequence (having previously warned her that this will be happening if she doesn't do what she's told at first ask).

Usually only have to do it once, or twice at the most, and then she is a lot better for several weeks, until she forgets and we have to do it again.

I balance this with letting her have control on small things/things just for her that don't impact me.

Oh my god. Your DD sounds incredible! I’m sorry, I know it’s difficult for you but what an amazing mind she has! My 21 month old DS2 is insanely oppositional, I’m actually tearing up at the thought of how difficult he is. He makes me cry daily. But my god, he is the most intelligent, interesting person I know. And he’s one years old.

I have only skimmed the posts but it seems like there’s a consensus around autism. I’m ADHD and there is a major issue with ADHD being recognised in girls/women, I understand it’s the same with autism. I would definitely get her privately assessed. Don’t trust the health professionals - they’re overworked and underfunded - and don’t wait to be taken seriously.

Good luck!

She could well be autistic (Particularly PDA type) or she could just be extremely clever and slightly manipulating things (subconciously, children aren't knowingly manipulative) to her own interests. I think the way to find out is to put more boundaries in place and see what happens. she will initially react badly, but if she eventually settles down and responds positively to boundaries, then she's just clever and trying to pursue her own agenda. If she keeps on kicking back and doesn't settle into boundaries, then there's a possibility of ASD

Honestly, you’ve allowed her to control you. Firm answers, showing and telling her you’re getting annoyed when she doesn’t do as she’s told and then consequences for not doing it (and consequences have to be something with impacts on child and every child will be different). My DCs (age 8 and 9) have had a fair few rows in their lives and have not been damaged by them and are fairly well behaved. One DC is likely Aspergers but I don’t think that’s an excuse for not calling out poor behaviour to be honest (likely unpopular view on MN but came from conversation with GP).

Sounds like she also might be doing it for attention. If you’re working long hours and lots of activities, new baby perhaps this is an example of any attention (even negative) is better than none. Maybe bonding with her over the things she wants to do-and trying to enjoy it rather than trying to move her onto next thing-might help. Look into love bombing.

Finally, sounds like you need a break from everything! Prioritise some you time just to recharge those batteries. Tricky behaviour is always more difficult to deal with when you’re running on empty.

Exactly this.
I was wondering if your DD could be ND until I read your example.

Sorry if I’m repeating anything as I’ve not read the full thread.

dd is now 11 and much much easier but from 2 to about 9 I had to use a totally different style of parenting than my other 2 dc. I suggest you give her choices so she feels in control.

”We’re going out so do you want to wear this pair of shoes or these ones?”

”we are going to the bakery and the library, which one should we go to first”

”let’s tidy up, do you want to tidy the table or the floor”

apparently I was a stubborn madam when it came to clothes and would often refuse to wear things (possibly because it was the 80s and my wardrobe featured some truly hideous options). Every night before bed my mum would hold up two outfits for me to choose between and that’s what I had to wear in the morning unless there was a severe change in the weather.

As an adult my DD described PDA like this; "when I was little and you told me to: eg put my shoes on, I'd hear bombs and machine guns going off all around me, and it was as if you were really yelling, "do it now, do it now, do it faster, louder and louder" and I'd just want to cover my ears and hide".
That is not a naughty, rude or manipulative child, that is a child who is struggling to cope.

Your DD might have some demand avoidant traits. The feeling gas lighted thing really stands out. PDA (to have actual PDA you have to meet very specific criteria) kids put almost all of their skill and energy into get out of things or trying taking charge of things and and it can sometimes seem like their only mission in life.

Whether it is a part of a neuro diversity (ASD, ADHD, highly gifted etc) or stand alone it might be worth following guidance aimed at PDA kids.
For example -
Making agreements together with the child. For the ‘leaving the house’ example this could be doing a timetable at the beginning of the day where they have input. Or for the questions it could be you agree to how many questions she can ask in a row.
Being less direct. For example just starting to help her with her shoes or packing away her pencils but not making the verbal demand if you know it’s likely to be a trigger.
Social stories (very clear stories about an expected behaviour) you can find guidance online
Making things a game eg, ‘I’m going to get my shoes on first….’ ‘I bet I’ll be in the car first’
Using indirect signals for transitions. For example having a song that you always play when it’s time to leave. Leaving her tooth brush in front of her with the tooth paste on but not telling her what to do. Using a sand timer can help her to know when she needs to do something without instructions repeatedly.
Some kids (some definitely don't) respond to an approach where someone/something else is used to encourage behaviour. Often a loved authority figure. ‘Your teacher says you’ve got to brush your teeth to keep them healthy’ etc ‘mrs X is going to be so proud when you brush your teeth’.
Personally I found that different approaches work for different kids and nothing works 100% but things can be much improved. Try to notice when she is being compliant and think about what could be working in that moment.

I totally understand as my teenage dd is exactly like this at times and its exhausting when she's on a roll. Its easy to get caught up in it all and she's so adamant that she's right that she actually says that I don't understand what she's talking about as if she's more superior intellectually. It's far harder to stay one step ahead for me at her age esp because I've also been treading on eggshells worrying about upsetting her because she has had some anxiety issues. Then one day it clicked that some things just didn't add up and that she was being manipulative and I questioned her. She accused me of calling her a liar but I played her at her own game and said no I didn't actually say that although I was intact saying that.

If I was in this situation when she was younger then I would nip it in the bud now by not entering into the conversations and negotiations. Eg with the colouring after the first time asking I would've just taken the colouring stuff off of her and put them up somewhere high and said come on we need to go now. Take the wind out of her sails and show its not negotiable but that you are the adult and she is the child.
Other people might say she's got this or got that but she just might be very bright and be fully aware of how to manipulate you. I realise I might be wrong but this is how I've managed to cope with my dds behaviour. It was making me miserable. It's been so draining.
A few times I've had to walk away and explained that I find it draining. Sometimes its been when she's asked advice and then more or less said my advice was rubbish etc. Ive then later had an apology from her. Sorry this is so long but your post sounds like like my dd. I also have no idea why she does this and only does it to me. Ive tried to make sense of it but I just can't. We are very close and when she's not like this she's also great to spend time with. You need to stay one step ahead but I know how hard that can be. It's been a lot better since I've started the walking away bit and I haven't had to do it too many times. For want of a better expression try putting your foot down with from boundaries. I'm not saying that in a your a bad parent sort of way so please don't think that. I know how difficult it can be. Just trying to help by saying that you've got to decide that this isn't acceptable. Its almost been like a power battle between me and my dd.Teachers have less authority than ever these days so I can understand how she or he won't be able to do the same.
Tomorrow's another day. Hope this is of some help.

Your dd sounds like a very intelligent child who has thrived on no boundaries or consequences. That dialogue explains everything 🤷‍♀️

Jumping straight to diagnosing her isn't helpful if no parenting strategies have been put in place first. And those diagnosing her with PDA are the worst. Is it even recognised outside of the UK?

She is running rings around you OP and it is easy to see why. She's very clearly in charge here.

Of course children can be manipulative. Most aren’t particularly good at it because it requires a really strong grasp of social and emotional reactions. OP describes a child who has those skills. It doesn’t mean she is a horrible child at all. Surely the concept of love the child but not the behaviour hasn’t totally passed you by?
Montessori wrote some really well thought out ideas about avoiding both praise and punishment to support development.

She sounds ultra-bright, so you need specific parenting techniques for her. Discussions with some children are positive as you are explaining why something is happening. But she is using discussion to get her own way. So it has to be very limited.
I would start by sitting down with her and saying you know she constantly delays things by discussing with you what she is doing and you do not want that to happen anymore. So what would help to change it. Would she like points if she does what she is told first time and then if she gets so many points she gets a little reward? But dont discuss with her about whether or not she delays things, just say you do I am not discussing it with you. She is ultra bright, she does not need the explanation.

Sounds like adhd to me.

This is bang on

OP, with respect, I think you need to be the parent here:
we’re leaving in 5 minutes
but I’m finishing my coloring
you have 5 minutes to finish and put your shoes on. If you’ve not done that, coloring supplies will not be available until tomorrow.
doesn’t do it
you remove coloring supplies.

i need an envelope.
no.

on repeat. It IS relentless and you will probably have many days of saying no and being unbending given how long you’ve been letting a kid run the show.

I’d also 100% call her bluff and go out the door, get in the car and drive around the corner.

My son is the same so I totally get and tbh I don’t feel its ASD I think it’s a high level of intelligence beyond their years. He has and answer to everything, finds it very easy to outsmart almost anyone, very sharp, polite and has a memory of an elephant lol

I see people have mentioned asd and pda. Your dd sounds very much like how my now teen ds behaved at her age. He has the same teacher year 3 and 4. She was convinced he was asd.

He was diagnosed with asd at 13 and pda. Look at pda, I read the traits and it was as if I was reading about my ds. Typical asd routines and rewards etc do not work.

he has no idea he is the child and we are the adults, he has no idea about hierarchy in society.

He is so so rigid in his thinking and no amount of evidence presented to him can sway his mindset.

We have to try and make him think everything is his idea, ask in a roundabout way, without actually asking. Low demand and choosing arguments is the mantra we live by.

Even if your dd does not have asd/pda maybe some of the techniques could help.

I disagree with all of the comments about autism, she is avoiding tasks that give her zero stimulation, procrastinating boring things and actively avoiding doing things to plan. Getting up and walking around in class, all of this sounds a lot like ADHD. She is trying to make short cuts and loopholes to ensure she manipulates a task in a way that gives her a dopamine release. Procrastinating and complicating mundane tasks are textbook girl ADHD traits.

Who says no parenting strategies have been put in place? No one is diagnosing either. You are extrapolating from very little information, as we all are because that’s the nature of mumsnet. We are all allowed an opinion or to suggest some possibilities.

oh dear..ok. i live this
ish
am not proffesional anything
cant rule out asd.defo beyond defiant tho.in my (personal)experience shes pulling a coping strategy(which makes sure,you dont)
shes possibly subjected to witnessing you persistently be undermind/bullied.its ALL about control.where is she get that from??you do so know