NC because I'm ashamed of how I'm feeling

[MigraineLevel9000]

Please if you have 5 minutes to read and reply, I ask you to do so. I really need help.

Where to start 😩

I have the most clever, funny, interesting, soon to be 6 year old little girl.

She is also making me want to throw myself off a bridge.

I feel like I spend all of my time asking her over and over again to do the same basic, easy to do tasks. I ask her nicely, she won't do it. I repeat the request firmly, she won't do it. I make it very clear this is the last time I'll ask, she usually begrudgingly does what is asked if her. Something that should take 30 seconds turns into 15 minutes of nonsense.

She talks back to me, but she is erudite and has fantastic vocabulary, she would almost make you doubt that what you're asking her is reasonable. She has an answer to everything.

She is incredibly energetic and sporty, this isn't a laziness issue it is pure stubbornness.

She's sharp as a tack, very witty and likeable. She had good friends, is happy at school and achieves well. But her poor teacher 😩 the entire first year of school was constant messages home, being pulled aside at school pick up by her teacher with the days latest nonsense. With exactly the same complaints I suffer with at home.

Her teacher even said she almost feels gas lit some days, because my daughter is so polite and calm when she's openly defying you and point blank not listening to whatever is asked of her. You so question yourself!

The teacher also commented that she is doing remarkably well at school considering she often decides she's not doing the work, gets up from the table and walks off, generally being an imp. If she actually applied herself she would do incredibly.

She is kept entertained, in plenty of extracurricular clubs, she swims, she does ballet, she has lots of time at home doing crafts, loves to draw, but fuck me she is just a nightmare to live with.

I'm now at a stage of daily migraines, I dread spending the day with her. Isn't that awful? I feel sick typing it because I can't convey how much I love this child but I'm done in.

I've just put her in bed. She's asleep, I'm in tears on the sofa because yet again I've only gotten 1/10th of the things done today I needed to because every single step was met with pure opposition. It's like wading through mud.

Please, tell me I'm not alone, tell me it ends?

Better yet, tell me how the hell I make this better.

X

She sounds amazing, and very hard work!

My DD is similar. She wants to know what and why and needs/likes to be in control of lots of situations. Most, really.

We thought she was bright and quirky when she was younger. When school first mentioned struggled with changes in routine, can be very rude but absolutely without meaning to be, I thought they were wrong (that she was autistic).. She was diagnosed autistic at aged 10. Nearly 12 now and I do think she fits the PDA criteria more. Hates a rigid routine, pushes back hard, reward charts just don't work. Rigid thinker with no shades of grey. She is clever and can be really good company. Friendship difficulties only really became apparent as she got s bit older and others made and maintained friends which she's never managed. At school in Y6 she often played with YR, 1 and 2 for example. Doesn't see heirarchy either- she will talk to any adult or stranger, Head teacher etc as if they're the 'same' as her. But also really didn't want to be in trouble at school so no issues there until it all broke down in the second half term of Y6.

But she is mega hard work too (and is finding life very tough over the last 9-10 months, became unable to go to school etc etc). I'd never have thought that we'd end up here.

Also feel the need to add that I have 2 other dc, one also described as "quirky" and some ASC features by his teacher but manages really well in general and one who I think is NT. I have none of the behaviour issues I have with her, no issues at school, they can make and maintain friendships etc which reassures me it isn't just piss poor parenting (I hope 😂)

I'd look at the PDA features again. Try the stricter boundaries, all that other advice you've been given. If it works, great. If not, I'd look at ASC.

Sorry, posted too soon. My DD is also awaiting ADHD assessment which school seem sure she'll get diagnosed with too. So, some of my DD's traits will be ASC, some will be ADHD (unless everyone is wrong about that) and actually hyperfocus on your special interest (her crafts maybe) but avoiding other things can also be ADHD.

Inattention: For many girls with ADHD, maintaining concentration is a constant struggle. They may have trouble focusing long enough to complete tasks both at home and at school. Don’t be thrown off by hyperfocus. Some people with ADHD are capable of focusing endlessly on things that interest them but can’t sustain attention on less interesting but more important tasks: A girl might read a novel cover to cover but find herself unable to finish the one-page book report.
Distractability: Girls with ADHD may also be easily distracted by outside stimuli, and prone to what Dr. Quinn calls “internal distractability.” Unconsciously swept away by their own thoughts, they end up completely missing things going on right in front of them.
Hyperactivity: Some girls show more “classic” signs of hyperactivity: being excessively active, struggling to stay still. Most, however, display the urge to be in motion more quietly, doodling, fidgeting, or constantly wiggling in their chairs.
Impulsivity: This, too, looks somewhat different in girls than boys. Girls may be overemotional, unable to slow themselves down to process their feelings. “Girls are more likely to be chatty and verbally impulsive,” says Kathleen Nadeau, director of the Chesapeake Center for ADHD. “They interrupt and talk out of turn.” Impulsive girls may struggle to interpret what is and isn’t socially appropriate and have trouble making and keeping friends.
Executive Malfunctions: Many of the issues associated with ADHD stem from poor executive functioning skillss_. Girls with ADHD can display poor time management and struggle with multi-step directions and task completion. Important items often go missing, sometimes remerging in surprising places: My phone was in the fridge? I have vivid memories of rushed, stupid mistakes that cost me dearly on tests, key buttons (ahem) left undone, vital papers lost only to be found, far past due and squashed beyond recognition, at the bottom of my backpack.

My dd is the exact same, forgive me for being an outlier but I pay no heed to it. I don't think my dd is autistic, that's never even crossed my mind or her teachers but she has got OCD. To me she can be a massive pain in which she gets disciplined (without hitting or screaming)but I love her nature. It's a problem if you make it one.

Tricky without knowing more about your daughter I offer I offer the same advice I’ve given to many: start the day earlier. She was engrossed in her art work and didn’t want to stop - sounds quite young, around 5. So perhaps she just needs a little more development. I suggest next time something like that arises you say ‘we’re leaving very soon so don’t start that now’. Or if she is already engrossed hand her autonomy by saying ‘we will leave very soon so could you find a good place to stop’’. Also some kids need absolute consistency and perhaps yours is one of them.
Regarding the shop convo, that’s just typical smart arsism - I have one. On the bright side, she’s resourceful and brave. Try to find the fun - she’s still little.

Yes, this works for us too! We would never get out of the house without 5 minute warnings.

5 minutes… go to the toilet, get your shoes on, time to go.

oh my god-i hate me.
id just abandoned the world-got into bed,and thought ffs...this ma sid "she make me wanna throw self off a bridge"......I am genuinely sorry op. PLEASE do not do that. dms open always to anyone need talk that out.
i was pretty horrible atchu-tho dunno was intent... wtf is go on tho

My armchair diagnosis would be to look into pathological demand avoidance.

www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/pda/parents-and-carers

She sounds a real character and highly intelligent. My youngest was like this, I learnt to care less about what she looked like and we often went out with her wearing wellies, a ballet skirt and some weird hat or suchlike combinations. I also once took her (very early) to school in her pyjamas with her uniform in a bag...she did get dressed quicker after that.
I 'm not sure labels help at all, but you could read up on techniques for ASD or PDD and see which help. Timers - 100%. Big on praise - praise as if she's already done it "Oh my goodness you're so helpful, you've made us ready on time!". Try (try try try) not to let her see you're getting riled, it's more power to her own strategies.

That example you've given sounds JUST like my six year old son. Right down to remembering a throwaway comment about which shop I preferred for a certain item and how many items I was planning on buying (so he could count them off in his mind and woe betide me if I remember something else in the shop and reach the end of his countdown before I've actually finished my shopping!)

I've also had to start actually saying the proper amount of time before we leave/a certain activity/when I'm going to be ready because he will go to Alexa and set a timer. No more 'in about ten minutes' for me because Alexa will start chiming out and reveal me for my inaccurate propechies!

Exactly the same issues at school, exactly the same problems of an amazing brain but could be doing so much better if he'd properly work. Teacher and I have also bonded a lot this year as well as the behaviour manager! We've gone back and forth over PDA but he just doesn't really fit that profile.

The difference I would say is that my DS as well as being very polite in his defiance (and I can well imagine that exact exchange over the colouring, fetching an envelope and not being allowed to leave him and all) he is also a human hurricane as well, unless he is focused on what interests him and has a myriad of things that can distract him (and they're really not a choice, I've seen it in action and he truly truly can't focus if certain things are going on, his language goes, he shakes his head as if trying to rid himself of it, it's fascinating). So he's now on the waiting list for ADHD assessment.

I'm afraid I don't have any advice for you really. My DS loves to 'help' give him a domestic task and he's in heaven but it has to be a proper one, he won't be fobbed off with a token kid tidy up task, he wants to be washing up, spraying surfaces, cutting up vegetables with a proper knife. I've learnt to just lean into his competence tbh. Other than that I mainly breathe a sigh of relief at bedtime and sleep a LOT when he and his brother go to their dads (his brother is autistic so it's....it's fucking full on at my house)

In all honesty I have come to believe that yes my boys ADHD (if he has it and I'm fairly sure he does) creates heightened versions of him I also believe that he's just very very clever and whilst quite emotionally astute, is also only six and therefore still only operating at the outer limits of a six year old's emotional intelligence and social graces. Then mix in a total lack of impulse control, lightening quick ridiculous ideas and execution and moving through life generally at the speed of sound PLUS distractibility that renders him helpless at the worst possible times and it's quite a potent mix!

It's entirely possible that you simply have an incredibly clever child on your hands whose social and emotional intelligence just hasn't quite caught up yet. She hasn't quite learnt the social contract that most of us sort of mostly know how to follow most of the time. Really all you can do with that is give it time and keep giving it guidance. Ask at school for support in this area when you go back maybe? But I get it OP I truly truly do, I love the bones of my boy but I'm not sorry when he's asleep!

This was also an epic reply, apologies for makig you read through all of it and well done if you did!

You are allowed to say "please stop talking. I need some quiet/you are melting my brain here!". I don't think I realised until my son was about 6- he asks questions faster than I can think and it feels stressful! He's also not a great listener and does things very much at his own pace.
He's now 9 - I tell him he's being demanding and rude when asking a question while I'm still answering the last one.
We talk a lot and have a great laugh but I think as parents we feel we have to give 100% of our brain power and attention to their every thought and whim. I do that less now, sometimes I say "I'm not interested" when he's chatting away and ignoring what I'm asking.
Less words are more sometimes.
Good luck!.

Special ed teacher here (in Australia). Much of what you describe sounds like many of the female students I've taught who have ASD. To be honest, I wouldn't put much weight on what the teacher or health visitor think - they are not qualified in any way to diagnose ASD (and neither am I, I just have a lot of experience in working with kids who have it). In Australia the process of diagnosis involves thorough review by psychologist and paediatrician, and whatever the process is in the UK, I would strong suggest you get underway, as the earlier the diagnosis is made and you can get supports in place, the better both her and your life will be.

I think I’d do the same as Howappropriate. Your example sounds exhausting, I wouldn’t be getting in to the negotiations. And there’s no way I would be giving in to envelopes and her dictating your route etc etc just because she’s talking in a nice tone and not a moaning tone! She’s a master negotiator and seems to know how to rings around you! I wouldn’t even have the energy to reply to all those requests, she would get silence and then consequences from me.

The worst advice on the thread, by a country mile - and that's saying something.

Firstly, leaving a 5 yo, even as a trick, is not ok

Secondly, OP's DD is bright & will sniff out the ruse immediately - and it will undermine OP completely.

I’m sorry but this approach with children who have PDA or ADHD does not work.

This.

And it will keep happening, she will keep finding the next thing to argue about. You’ve given her years of not putting a firm boundary in place so it’s going to take a while for the behaviour to change. and she may push back for a while until she realises you mean it.

its exhausting (similar DC).

(Quoted wrong bit sorry!)

Our niece was like this and she did it to everyone excluding her Father. Basically her DM had let her ''get away/too many chances'' to have her own way, she just learnt to do things when it suited her. Regardless and she learnt how to lie very convincingly when it came to other friends and family.

She is now in her mid twenties and has on going issues and has been hospitalised, treatments and medications. She is unable to hold down a job for long as she has done it to Employers as well.

Yours is at an age where you can make changes now as to how you handle outcomes, as other people have said, don't get into the explaning and second chances. Bu I would recommend seeing your GP and ask for a reference to someone perhaps who specialises in child psychology and seek their opinion if they think there is a further problem or not.

Our niece is definitely ''wired'' differently...

Honestly it sounds like you are being too soft. She is being manipulative, rude and lazy.

DS (6) has these traits and needs completely different parenting to his older sibling. He is extremely intelligent and very endearing too, so sometimes he’s being so sweet while trying to defy us I have to remember what he is doing!

We have found consistent parameters and consequences absolutely necessary. His currency is tv before bed and his favourite snacks. He gets neither of these things if he has not done as instructed, found a loophole etc.

Otherwise he’d be a bit of a monster to be honest and we would be setting him up to fail later in life.

Our other child only needs to be asked once and is entirely truthful.

So Im chiming in. I WAS your daughter. I was the smart kid, great vocab, everyone else thought I was a great child. I would talk back, procrastnate ect. I was diagnosed with ADHD. Once I started meds and therapy, it made a huge difference. Try a chore chart, maybe a reward when she does what you ask her to all day

My daughter, now 23, was like this. She had ODD tendencies but not to the point I sought a diagnosis. She always knew better and could talk your ear off. I still see glimmers of some of the tendencies but often they help her dig deep and believe in herself - it's taken her very far in her education and her sport, though she drove her coaches crazy at times. We've done a lot of work on communication and interpersonal skills. She's become a wonderful, self reliant adult.

I found Raising your Spirited Child , The Explosive Child , How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and the other one a PP mentioned very helpful for understanding where the 'difficult' behaviour was coming from, how to head it off, and exact wording to use to gain compliance without losing my mind or my temper. Definitely the 'we are going in 5 minutes, please put on the red or the blue shoes' choices helped. I also swallowed my pride and let her choose whatever combination of clothes she wanted, with the caveat that they be weather appropriate. I gave her choices wherever possible.

As others have said, if requests need to be repeated, use exactly the same wording. And as few words as possible.

Consequences for good and negative behaviour. We had charts and rewards. And an astounding number of beanie babies as a result😁

I found several approaches really worked with her/her siblings.

One was the inbox approach: 'No more talking please. I need some quiet to let my inbox empty. When it fills up from too much talking (more than 7 items), I can't hear anything new and I really want to be able to listen to what you're saying. Right now it has Mommy, mommy, mommy, etc.".

Another was the 'happy energy' level: "I start off the day with a set amount of happy energy. If you do things quickly when asked, and are helpful, I keep my happy energy and will have some happy energy left to do fun things, like go to the park and read stories. If you don't do things quickly and I have to wait and ask again and again, it uses up my energy and there's only energy left for 'have to do's'". They used to ask me how much 'happy energy' I had and what they could do to help me make more. Reading that back, I feel guilty. I should also explain I have chronic illnesses, including migraines.

And the last I can think of right now was the 'have to do' vs the 'want to do' tasks/activities. The kids all had their own 'want to do' lists that they could chose from and decide together. We'd get the 'have to do's' like groceries done first and then the 'want to do's'. They knew if the groceries didn't go well the 'want to do' activity was at risk. -and I stuck to it, going straight home rather than the park if I was running on empty.

Good luck 💐

I also wanted to say you are not the only one, I have an almost four year old who is similar and I am exhausted with the endless negotiations. He is not my first child and I am a firm no nonsense parent. My youngest is a completely different child than my others. He is as lovely and bright as your daughter sounds. I have been reading about PDA and the parenting techniques definitely help. My husband has PDA traits too (he is very successful if a little difficult). The pda techniques are very different to those saying just punish etc. I would have said the same until I had my son, firm does not work but I don't think you can convey the difference in writing on here. I also make sure my son has a full 12 hours sleep every night, this seems to makes things easier. You have some great suggestions on this thread. Hang in there, you sound like you're doing great.

I have a son with asd there are similarities except he doesn't have your dd communication.!!
My advice would be firstly lower your expectations, that feeling of wanting things to be different is frustrating and makes everything feel worse. Your dd is who she is, you can work on specific issues and find ways round things but ultimately she is who she is and in my experience your better working with that than against it.
Secondly a lot of issues can be managed by working with her environment, so if you struggle with getting her to move from one task to the next would a visual chart (photos of planned events) help? So she can see the expectation. Lots of warning (like 10-20 min) of activity changes. Ask her why she can't do something and try to see it from her perspective and find a middle ground. Allow lots of time so you don't get frustrated at being late. A reward chart may help but make sure it's achievable, so if she messes about at bedtime and you want teeth done, pjs etc by 730pm and you find it takes an hour, aim for 55min, then when that's achieved 50min etc. lots of praise/reward. The aim is by working with her she will hopefully feel better about relinquishing control sometimes which may mean she's less demanding. phillipa perrys book The book you wish your parents had read, is great with lots of good tips. Also if your thinking not Sen (asd/adhd often unfortunately go unrecognised in girls) then read up on 'high need' children.

As she's so grown up, could you get her to do her own 'school morning schedule'? With pictures if needs be. Then she can follow it with timings, moving a picture of her face along to the next activity if that works. Then you could do a 'leaving the house'/'bedtime routine' one. Then all you have to do is say "time for the school morning schedule, let's see if you can do it without any prompting from me today'.

Not sure if that would help? Minimise instructions.

What would happen if you answered some of her queries with 'what do you think'?

Sounds a LOT like my youngest DD who would always respond to a request to do something (or stop what she was doing) with “I’m JUST going to….” and utterly ignore what was required of her. Like yours, happy, sociable, funny, whip smart, etc…. She was diagnosed as being borderline ADHD, probably because her behaviour was really good. We tried meds for a while, but tbh, they diminished her joy. We went with fairly gentle behaviour modification just like someone suggested upstream, she had choices removed instead. ie, “You can wear this or that… Which one?”.”Right… I offered you two choices and you didn’t listen. This or that, or I will choose for you.” One direction at a time. Instead of “Go upstairs and brush your teeth because we need to leave…”, try “Okay, go and brush your teeth now.” If you’re detailing an activity she’s focused on, “Right… Put the colouring away now.” (“But I want to xxxxx”) “Put it away or I will take it.” (There are consequences.)