NC because I'm ashamed of how I'm feeling

[MigraineLevel9000]

Please if you have 5 minutes to read and reply, I ask you to do so. I really need help.

Where to start 😩

I have the most clever, funny, interesting, soon to be 6 year old little girl.

She is also making me want to throw myself off a bridge.

I feel like I spend all of my time asking her over and over again to do the same basic, easy to do tasks. I ask her nicely, she won't do it. I repeat the request firmly, she won't do it. I make it very clear this is the last time I'll ask, she usually begrudgingly does what is asked if her. Something that should take 30 seconds turns into 15 minutes of nonsense.

She talks back to me, but she is erudite and has fantastic vocabulary, she would almost make you doubt that what you're asking her is reasonable. She has an answer to everything.

She is incredibly energetic and sporty, this isn't a laziness issue it is pure stubbornness.

She's sharp as a tack, very witty and likeable. She had good friends, is happy at school and achieves well. But her poor teacher 😩 the entire first year of school was constant messages home, being pulled aside at school pick up by her teacher with the days latest nonsense. With exactly the same complaints I suffer with at home.

Her teacher even said she almost feels gas lit some days, because my daughter is so polite and calm when she's openly defying you and point blank not listening to whatever is asked of her. You so question yourself!

The teacher also commented that she is doing remarkably well at school considering she often decides she's not doing the work, gets up from the table and walks off, generally being an imp. If she actually applied herself she would do incredibly.

She is kept entertained, in plenty of extracurricular clubs, she swims, she does ballet, she has lots of time at home doing crafts, loves to draw, but fuck me she is just a nightmare to live with.

I'm now at a stage of daily migraines, I dread spending the day with her. Isn't that awful? I feel sick typing it because I can't convey how much I love this child but I'm done in.

I've just put her in bed. She's asleep, I'm in tears on the sofa because yet again I've only gotten 1/10th of the things done today I needed to because every single step was met with pure opposition. It's like wading through mud.

Please, tell me I'm not alone, tell me it ends?

Better yet, tell me how the hell I make this better.

X

This would be my approach too! At 5 years old, the vast majority of her behaviour has been learned from her parents. People think intelligent-sounding conversation and sarcasm is cute in young children so they laugh and encourage it. You need to help her learn the correct way to engage with other people.
You ask her to do something and she doesn't do it until you ask a third time and lose your temper, because she's learned that she doesn't need to do something until you ask a third time and lose your temper. Teach her that the time to do that thing is the first and only time you ask. That might mean she loses treats or whatever for a while, but she will get that message.
She finds loopholes in something you say, because she gets attention when she does this - whether positive (you're so clever) or negative (you're arguing with me - it's still attention. When she picks a loophole, dismiss it, "that doesn't matter, what I'm asking you to do is this".
And so on.
The example you describe about colouring when you asked her to put her shoes on is ridiculous, you've given her far too much power in that situation! I would have taken that colouring off her and she wouldn't get it back for the rest of the day, with the explanation that I asked her to put her shoes on and she ignored me.

Well @Wellthatgotbetter according to some PP here, PDA isn't even a real thing and just bad behaviour from regular kids so grab a notepad and get ready to learn because clearly the experts are here....

I'm fortunate that neither of my two autistic DC have a PDA profile but we have some DC who are PDA in our local SEN group, including one from a very good friend. Obviously they're just shit parents who believe in an imaginary thing too.

And people wonder why parents with autistic and neurodiverse DC feel so isolated?!

To be fair, there are also a lot of posters who seem to disbelieve in poor/undesirable behaviour in NT kids.

Interesting mix of responses on this thread. The difference is very clear between those with experience of ASD and/or ADHD (either because they have it themselves or have a child with it) and those with no experience at all, who think the child just needs stricter parenting. No wonder parents of ND/SEND children have such a hard time

OP, my DC is 5 and not diagnosed with anything but I have strong suspicions and am taking steps to getting a diagnosis. I have found the advice on the PDA Society website very helpful, so whether or not DC ends up with a diagnosis of ASD with PDA, it's helping in the meantime.
www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/helpful-approaches-children/

In our case OT is helping, too, although my DC has some physical issues that you haven't mentioned in your posts.

My view is that parenting a child with techniques you might use for ND children is not going to adversely affect a NT child and the end result is v probably going to be the same. Using techniques that traditionally 'work' with an NT child (in that the focus is external behavioural signs of obedience/biddability) for a child who is ND is counterproductive in both the short and long term. So why not use the first approach. It doesn't mean you can't be forthright/strict about the behaviour you want from the child.

Agree with all you've posted. I've been on MN for years though and these threads always throw up "they're just naughty/need more discipline/pfft! to SN crew though.

Sorry OP I haven’t read the full thread but will return later.

I just want to say you are doing an excellent job as my DS6 has many of the traits you describe, but (sorry) isn’t as bad. And I find it bloody exhausting! And suspect ASD/ADHD because he is similar in school - defiant and has to be asked more than once to do things, definitely has his own agenda a lot of the time.

Will return later to RTFT.

This is so true. Also working on the assumption that the OP isn’t entirely stupid and has used the “normal” parenting strategies without success, and the child’s teacher is also using conventional strategies without success, I think it’s probably reasonable to assume that more of the same won’t succeed.

OP I really hope you do look up how ADHD presents in girls which is more subtle than in little boys
My son got 10 high GCSEs and 4 A Levels all A* but he had Undiagnosed ADHD all along. Until it was diagnosed aged 20 years old and then became pretty obvious in hindsight

Don't beat yourself up over it. Ask GP to refer if any of what I said earlier is familiar and tell teachers GP has referred her. Then let her be tested as they will check if she has a neuro diversity.

Children can be a challenge anyway but it's hard work when they are ND they can still do so well a school however they work so much harder to do so. I look at my amazing DS who drove me potty when he was younger (& still does still Leaves taps on, front door open, loses keys regularly - we have a locator tag on it..!) and realise he would have had a slightly easier if we'd known back then

"We're going to the car in two minutes."

2 minutes later: put colouring book away and carry shoeless child to the car. Collect shoes en route if time. And give a second minute warning if time. You made a few empty threats which unfortunately weaken your authority.

Op your daughter sounds very much like my son.

He started talking at 9 months, just single words, his first word was "Duck" not mumma dadda. At just over 12 months he was putting together simple sentences, at 18m more complex sentences. By five he questioned everything and everyone, and would very calmly disagree with us. At the time he was very happy in a very small pre prep and got plenty of attention from adults and work that challenged him. Later he went to a small state primary and we had to pull him out eventually. The teachers noticed he preferred adult company despite having friends, he would whizz through his work, had questions on everything, very little challenged him, and when he had finished the work, and any extension work he started to disrupt other pupils. their only answer was to then use him to help other children with their work.

He has the memory of an elephant, an IQ of 146, was doing IGCSE maths and physics at 10......he was and still is a dream in many ways. But he is lazy, he will argue about everything, still have this sniff of cynicism about him, and is now struggling with maths at degree.

I just had to parent him differently to how I saw other parents with their own children. Punishment, time out, shouting, taking stuff away was never going to work, and he would have been the first to tell me this! Since he had more than a little bit of me, and I had been described as quietly non conforming, and "going my own way" and told that I too had listened and then quietly gone about doing things my own way, I figured it was just a quirk of personality, not something pathological. Although in old money he'd probably meet the diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, as would I.

I negotiated, I explained, and I gave him adequate opportunity to express his opinion. I can count on one hand when I raised my voice, and when I did it was sharp, direct, directive and quite sudden. It was reserved for times when he/or his brother were about to transgress some non-negotiable boundary, and it worked because they realised that I meant business and since nothing else much had elicited this reaction from me that I wasn't going to negotiate.

I think your daughter sounds fine, just a bit precocious, bright probably. Its exhausting, but if she is anything like my son I'd rather have this any day than some child bouncing off the walls with no "reason" in their head. I found out when I taught maths in primary schools that I had very little interest in teaching the average child, but what was more challenging and interesting was working with the intelligent argumentative ones.

Just hold on to the idea that these bright but difficult personalities are apt to demand change, see the bigger picture, have bigger picture thinking, critical thinking, the ability to see problems and links between things, understand theoretical concepts and interrogate accepted "facts".

A son. Who was awkward and difficult at this age. Who still likes a good loophole in any argument. But has also grown up to responsible, mature, independent, focused on politics and social justice, and yes.. doing well on a difficult degree course. And yes I believe he will do well in his chosen career, hence my attempt to reassure OP that they do grow up to channel these things for good.

I think its interesting that at any hint of criticism (which have really been fairly mild and the vast majority of posts have been helpful) the op has spat the dummy.

Your op certainly rears like you think your dd is amazing (which is great) and that everyone should love her (unrealistic) so I'm not surprised she has the attitudes she does. Youve told her repeatedly she's the boss and adults do her bidding.

Your child's behaviour is making you ill. Regardless of the cause (be it ND or just a small kid who hasn't been shown boundaries) you need to find a way to manage it.

Ask for an assessment to rule out any issues. And stop pandering to the behaviour that is literally driving you crazy.

I had very little interest in teaching the average child.

Quite shocking to hear this from a teacher.

Actually you may be On point with this. The specialists that dealt with my autistic daughter told me that schools in the less popular catchment areas teach all pupils as they would ND children due to increase in learning difficulties ( apparently this is common although I am only taking her word for it) She told me all kids actually learn better and behaviour is well adjusted no matter if they are ND, NT looked after children etc. The LA only get an influx of requests for EHCP once the child is preparing for high school.this is my area.

My DD went to a leafy green, well sought after school and they were the most arrogant, cruel, incompetent twats! No idea 're autism. Moaned constantly had no grasp of up to date knowledge. No compassion. Our ASD kids are not naughty, put them in the right environment and they thrive.
most of our ground-breaking \ history making discoveries, inventions and artists were autistic!
Give the parent a massive break. We are from all walks of life trying to study like phd students in our child's diagnosis as you and the rest of society roll your eyes and say discipline them more. ( you will seriously be embarrassed one day when you realise just how stupid you sound) our children and family are vulnerable, tired, burnt out, emotionally drained And frankly fed up of everyone being twats. The hateful comments about ASD and bad behaviour \ bad parenting should be as vilified as racism is. It isn't acceptable to invisible disabilities as it is to visible

@SendersSea

I don't disagree necessarily with your points, at least to an extent.

I was objecting to that poster arbitrarily deciding it was down to OP's 'insecurities'. What knowledge had she about that?

I am amazed how people think gratuitous insults are ok.

i would ask your GP to refer re the autism, if you want to,
sometimes the schools do not like to admit defeat
they can cope therefore no diagnosis is needed

Sorry OP, I know this sounds harsh but I just think the idea that her teacher ‘adores the bones of your daughter’ and that you’ve ‘bonded’ over her frequently having to pull you for chats over her misbehaviour is a daft and unhelpful way for you to be thinking.

Agreed, do teachers really 'love the bones' of a child they teach ?! Nice you have bonded, wonder if any of the other children/parents in the class manage to get a look in.

I haven't seen any particularly nasty posts only people falling over themselves to tell the OP what a wonderful child she has and how they themselves have highly intelligent, bright, thriving kids.

Have now RTFT and can see that the OP has gone which is a shame, there’s some excellent insight and advice on here.

OP what I have been doing with my DS so far (as mentioned he isn’t quite as “bad” for want of a better word, but he is absolutely not a conformist and goes through phases of not doing what he’s asked first time, outright refusal or simply ignoring the request, both at home and at school) is come down firm. TV is his currency at the moment, so if he doesn’t do what’s asked first time (and I mean first time), he loses tv that day. I’ve been more forthcoming with natural consequences too, for example if he’s bothering his sibling in the paddling pool and I ask him to stop, and he doesn’t, he comes out.

It seems to have had some success, we’ve had the odd day where he’s still been really rude and hard work (full of attitude at the moment) but I feel better for having calm yet firm boundaries in plac, and I think he does respond better to this - sometimes now all I have to do is give him a look and he will stop/apologise. It’s not foolproof but better than shouting and getting into a complete negative cycle. On the evenings when he’s lost TV, we’ve often played board games together instead which although I’m conscious seems like a reward, I think connecting is important too.

As mentioned though I do suspect ND, I actually posted a while ago about whether all/most children with behaviour “issues” in fact turn out to be ND, especially if they are this way at school too. I struggle to believe that any NT child, without any attachment issues or problems at home, would misbehave for the sake of it, although plenty of posters didn’t agree. I could be very argumentative and difficult as a child, and got plenty of “you should be a QC/barrister” comments from my parents, although I think I was well behaved in primary - quiet and flew under the radar anyway. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m also ND, although I’ve done online questionnaires for both ASD and ADHD and don’t quite fit enough for either.

@Ponderingthemeaningoflife I don't necessarily think that all misbehaviour is due to SEN, but I do believe that all misbehaviour is a form of communication and our job as parents is figuring out what they're trying to communicate. It could be as simple as tiredness, hunger, boredom or it could be more complex such as anxiety, loneliness or unmet SEN needs etc. That doesn't mean ignoring poor behaviour - similar to you, I believe in consequences not punishment and that approach has worked really well with my two ASD DC.

What I did want to mention though is your last comment re yourself. Have you looked at female specific resources for autism and ADHD? I've just been commenting about this elsewhere but female autism/ADHD looks very different and you might not tick the same boxes, depending on how the question is phrased. Lots - and I do mean LOTS - of these diagnostic questionnaires are set up with a male bias and fail to pick up female autism.

The other thing which is highly relevant is if you have autism and ADHD, they pull in opposite directions and can sometimes mask diagnosis or make it tricky. So for example, I crave the predictability and safety of routine and knowing what's going to happen, as it feels soothing. But yet I cannot stick to a routine if you gave me a million pounds! And the demands of a routine can make me feel anxious while simultaneously being something that I want! So on the questionnaires that ask do you stick to routines and do things the same way, technically my answer is no - but it's way more complicated than just "no" which isn't something the questionnaires can cater for. Same with my environment - a neat, tidy and uncluttered environment helps me feel calmer but I cannot seem to manage it, chaos, clutter and utter disorganisation follow me wherever I go! And yes, I'm autistic with a side helping of ADHD. Just thought I'd mention it in case it helps!

Thing is the child might be intelligent but that’s not enough to go far in life

as we all know a big part of doing well in education and a career is the ability to just sometimes knuckle down, know when to conform, and do stuff you don’t wanna do.

So in my experience lots of above average intelligence kids go on to become very average or below average in their attainment if they’re not able to change their attitude

@cheveux

in what way does she sound amazing?!

really??

she sounds like a perfectly normal run of the mill little girl who has been allowed to get away with a lot

lol agree totally

the teacher will not “adore the bones of her”

pretty bizarre thing to say to be honest

@LuckySantangelo35 she sounds very clever and really interesting. I love the sound of her vocabulary and I think kids who have a bit of personality and know their own minds are great! I’d much rather have a child who can think for themselves and is very bright than one who’s a bit dim and a sheep.