DH spent £45,000 without agreement. Can anything be done?

[Concernedd]

Hi,

Account NC and this is actually my parents rather than myself, but I am writing on behalf of my mother who is worried sick.

My mother and father have a joint bank account, although my mother never uses it. Over the last 2 years my father has sent a man £45,000 from this joint account without telling my mother. Apparently it was for a business deal which has since gone sour.

My father has no legal agreement with this guy and I think it was all a scam. My father sent the money to a company which I can see on Companies House has since been dissolved.

Can anything be done to get the money back? I don’t know if the fact it was a joint account makes any difference, as my mother didn’t consent?

Any advice appreciated.

A lot of presumptions going on here- appologies if ages have been mentioned later on.....

everyone is presuming thechap is elderly and vunerable/suffering with dementia etc etc- that may not be the case.

Even my professional friends back home fell for a scam for the Iraki dinars and lost the money; fortunately they didn’t invest all their money

LicoricePizza I heard that appalling crypto-currency scam thing too - absolutely shocking. The difference I suspect is that the victim there realised he’d been scammed, and unfortunately it doesn’t sound as though OP's father is at that point. He seems to continue to believe that shovelling money at the scammer will bring rewards.

Its likely to be much harder to get him to stop, sadly. But I agree that bank and police are the way to go first.

Jessbow
The term elderly is acceptable in legal and medical circumstances over the age of 65.
The OPs father retired 8 years ago so one assumes he is over 65.
The OP herself describes him as a “ lonely old man”

Be prepared for your dad to be in denial, get cross that you are asking him about it, etc, be evasive, not tell you everything. It's a common reaction that no-one wants to believe they've been scammed so get incredibly defensive, tell themselves and others they believe it will actually work out and almost double down on it.

That's why it's really important to get the bank to do what they can to prevent further payments.

I'm really sorry this happened.

My parents are still both very savvy, but they have a rule that any expenditure, response to unsolicited email, etc is run past the other. Their hope is that, having established that habit, if one of them becomes more vulnerable, the other will be able to stop them doing anything foolish.

I wonder if any of the banks can be persuaded to provide an account where payments have to be double-authorised - like organisations needing two signatures on cheques - although of course nothing's done by cheque any more, which makes it rather harder.

This is a few years old now, OP, but might be worth listening to. Starts about 1.30 minutes in - a man whose father was sending money to fraudsters and borrowed more to keep on doing it. It’s from a special You and Yours series

Can you make a list of all the bank payments with amounts and dates, then write/email this man on your mother's behalf and say their accountant is asking for copy receipts and paperwork for all of the payments?
If your DF was investing in a business or a property, there will be paperwork. And if the man is a conman then he may start to back off if he thinks your family are looking seriously at the sums of money he's taken from your DF.
Then make an appointment with a solicitor or with a CAB.
You have so little information atm that it's impossible to say if your DF was scammed or just made bad decisions. An accountant and a solicitor/CAB can help to tease out exactly what has happened.

It’s definitely worth reporting to the police. They do investigate cases like this and the man may be doing it to others too. There probably won’t be much money left to recover sadly.

I'm not optimistic as I presume the company director structured things but if you cannot see how anything can be done, you might want to ask the solicitor about the Insolvency Service who have some abilities to take action and recover company liabilities from the Director. There are ways to make this harder but good luck.

Unfortunately these sorts of scams play into people's vulnerabilities: the need to feel important/relevant, slight greed.

The lottery scams You have won the Greek lottery play into people's dishonesty. They know they haven't entered the Greek lottery but are prepared to play along and do the real winner out of their rightful prize. So they pay the 'gaming tax' then the bank charges, the admin fee, the facilitation charge.

With both types of scam the more the victim has lost the more willing they are to spend to try to recoup.

I disagree regarding a diagnosis “won’t help now”. I agree with PP that this can be a first sign of dementia. A diagnosis could help with: accessing treatment, applying for power of attorney, and add to evidence that the gentleman is particularly vulnerable.

Look into setting up POA for both of your parents ASAP.

You cannot set up a POA for anyone other than yourself (and anyone of any age should set one up).

So each of your parents should set one up. It's up to them who they appoint to act on their behalf if needed. A person setting up a POA has to have capacity when they do so.

Once a POA is in place, it doesn't mean it comes into force, so the appointees can't just act on the person's behalf without their say so. They can only do this if a POA is activated.

This is just awful but it does happen. I would talk with the bank. Didn't the bank ever quiz him about these payments? My bank stop my account if I buy anything out of the ordinary (and I am not elderly).

Having POA would be useful in future because your DPs could then say that they have to run everything past you.

The FCA’s vulnerable customers guidance requires banks etc to have systems in place to look out for people who could be vulnerable eg potentially because of old age. One of the indicators is unusual large payments.

So while the joint account situation means that there was no formal need for your father to ask your mother for consent, the bank’s wider obligations might mean that they can help in some way.

I was speaking to a financial services firm yesterday, and advising what they should do to comply with their regulatory requirements, and it was quite similar to the above.

Good luck x

I work for a high street bank. You definitely need to report to them as a matter of urgency.

They will try and reclaim the funds but it's very unlikely as they will have more than likely already have been spent/moved . They will contact the beneficiary bank who will block the beneficiary's account until the beneficiary proves the funds were genuine ,if any are left in the account then they'll have to send the money back. This may be enough to put this fella off.

With elderly customers if the bank is at fault eg they should have noticed the payments were suspicious and didn't do enough to protect your dad then they may also compensate him for the loss of funds.

They can also put a block on the joint account so both parties need to sign for any payments to help protect your dad in the future.

How did he send the payments? If it was via internet banking then you need to speak to the bank about disabling the internet banking this will also help prevent further losses. Same if it was over the phone they can block telephone banking access.

You'll need your mum and dad to attend with you unless you have power of attorney.

Also definitely report to the police. Especially as this is someone known to your dad rather than a stranger they'll investigate the fraud.

Unfortunately I have seen loads of cases like this and it is often only a chat with the police that makes the victim realise that they have been scammed.

Good luck.

Presumably the chances of getting anything back are slim OP, but still worth trying?

You can get a company restored to the register within 6 years of dissolution and get it wound up but if there are no assets or the directors have no assets it may not be worth it.

You need to get your DF to accept that this man has been scamming him. Until he accepts this he is vulnerable.

Contact the bank and see how they can help.

I wondered if it could be a long lost secret son and/or he was being blackmailed about something, as had never told your mum etc- just a random thought OP.

You need to get power of attorney on their finances.. your poor mum ❤️

@Crikeyalmighty that's exactly what I thought and asked upthread.

I have watched this form of "grooming" several times. I had Power of Attorney so I had the right to put a stop to family members trying to con an older person. This older person was also being "groomed" by a person who seems to have a habit of buying properties from older and or disabled people going into residential care at low prices. I have recently been targeted by the same person tell me who to sell my house to. The house is not for sale. I have grey hair but I have had grey hair since my early 20s. Maybe this person thinks I am older than I really am. Through job this person only ever deals with very vulnerable people most at the end of their lives.
This type of grooming should be taken seriously by the authorities but it is not. Banks can and do register vulnerable customers

You need to speak to the bank - I used to work for one. How old are your parents? You need to state that they are very vulnerable, not of full mental capacity, that they have been basically groomed, that the bank haven't flagged such large transactions to the same man.

They will investigate and would hopefully offer to reimburse all or half. If they don't, log a complaint, and if they still don't you need to take it to the financial ombudsman.

If you report it to the police and to action fraud, they should send out a victim support officer who will have great experience at claiming back money from scams from the bank and they should assist you. X

The money has gone and no chance of getting it back
BUT the silver lining is that you have identified your father as being very vulnerable to money scams and your mother seems very naive re her finances
SO
now focus your efforts on educating them to protect themselves from this ever happening again