DH spent £45,000 without agreement. Can anything be done?

[Concernedd]

Hi,

Account NC and this is actually my parents rather than myself, but I am writing on behalf of my mother who is worried sick.

My mother and father have a joint bank account, although my mother never uses it. Over the last 2 years my father has sent a man £45,000 from this joint account without telling my mother. Apparently it was for a business deal which has since gone sour.

My father has no legal agreement with this guy and I think it was all a scam. My father sent the money to a company which I can see on Companies House has since been dissolved.

Can anything be done to get the money back? I don’t know if the fact it was a joint account makes any difference, as my mother didn’t consent?

Any advice appreciated.

Has your mother done anything to 'lock down' their finances so your dad can't keep doing this? If it were my dad, I'd tell my mum to move as much money as possible into a non-joint account.

A friend's dad had (has) a gambling habit and no matter what the family said he would not stop because 'next time he'll hit the big one'. They ended up having to divorce to save what was left of their assets as he agreed to sign them over to her in the divorce.

Report to the police as fraud. You know the perpetrator which will help.

This reminds me of a similar case where an elderly intelligent & successful man was rinsed of his savings in similar fashion & was understandably devastated, as was his family, to learn he’d been manipulated & robbed.

He was interviewed on Radio 4 & for him it was the feeling of being involved in a business again (being retired) & how dealing with this dynamic younger man, who appeared to value him (having become invisible & kind of redundant to society as the older can often sadly be made to feel). It made him feel like the previously successful & dynamic person he was used to be himself.

This poor man went on to have a breakdown after the impact of what had happened dawned on him. Like your DF it was in the one hundred thousands of pounds worth of basically theft/fraud by some ruthless conman.

I feel for you & your family & hope there is some form of redress. If any identifying info re the person could be passed over to the police?? This person will most probably have form.

I worry about my dad doing something like this, I think its definitely a thing in older men, its a pride thing I think, they trust their judgement where they really shouldn't.

I'm so sorry OP, I hope you your mum gets her money back!

Go with your parents to the bank. If your dad won't go, then at least help your mum set up a bank account of her own. She can take money from the joint account and any joint savings account and keep it safe under her name.

Make your dad go to the doctor to be assessed for Alzheimers.
Why does your mum never use the joint account? Does your dad control the finances? Does your mother have access to money of her own?
Look into setting up POA for both of your parents ASAP.

Are they paying a mortgage?
Why do you think they can't afford their house? Are you talking about the house they are living in?

It's worth contacting the bank, although some are better than others in this regard. I wouldn't be too hard on your father as it sounds like he is vulnerable and has been manipulated, I'd extend support to both.

What does the man himself think/say? ( the victim?)

I very much doubt the bank will be able to retrieve any of it- and why should they? Would you be thinking the same if the compny was making pots of money?

You know if your father is of sound mind- sounds like he is, just Gullible.
A diagnosis of dementia/Altzheimers really wont help now ( different perhaps if he's been diagnosed years ago)

I'd agree with talking to the bank, it can't hurt.

My dad was involved with scammers for years and years - at least a decade, probably longer. He himself was not cognitively impaired at all, but vulnerable because of depression and feeling he was unsuccessful. He managed to persuade other people to 'invest', one of whom had dementia. He was still in touch with them at his death, they were texting him in hospital.

I would prioritise protecting any future income and your mum. Scammers are very very good at what they do and they pass on details. My dad was in touch with people who were supposed to be all over the world (God knows where they actually were).

To second and add to some of the comments here, the immediate action would be to get a LASTING power of attorney agreed if there is even a slight concern about your fathers mental health. A standard Power of Attorney would no longer be valid if in the future it was determined that there is an underlying issue which has been undiagnosed to date. I appreciate the broader comments about generally having been easy to manipulate but given the surprise you have expressed on your own and your mothers behalf- it doesnt sound like this sort of activity would have been anticipated or in character and may suggest a change in susceptibility over the last few years. Unfortunately the early signs of an underlying condition can be very subtle, so at the very least I would get that ruled out as a possibility.

As others have said the immediate step would be to report it as fraud to the police. There has been no error in any transfers etc, and so unless fraud is suspected or proven the banks are unlikely to be of much help - particularly as the legal entity he transferred money to (the company) no longer exists. To penetrate that corporate veil, you are going to need the polices support. There is likely to be less support available given the length of time you suggest the transfers have been made over, as there is less to suggest the transactions were suspiciois (it would be fairly normal to transfer regular payments of several thousands to a company for regular services etc, whereas a large 100k payment would have had greater grounds for being more rigourously flagged). In general, banks tend to be more aware of transactions over c.10k for money laundering reasons, so it is unclear whether the individual deliberately kept their requests low to avoid detection (suggesting a more elaborate scam) or whether this was all they felt comfortable asking for at different intervals.

The only reason I flag this, is that if this is a sophisticated scammer with multiple victims ot will a) be easier to prove and b) increases the likelihood that their may be assets in the background that could hold value and provide a route to recover some of the funds.

You mention that your parents may be unable to afford their home. Assuming that they own the property rather than renting they may be that when you have more answers, they may wish to look at equity release plans with a reputable provider. These have a bad reputation as the interest isnt paid off monthly/annually and is due when individuals die or are taken into long term care. By that time the interest has typically compounded and there is little left for family/the estate - but in this scenario may provide an opportunity for your parents to stay in the family home which is otherwise unachievable. They would need to get financial advice around this and I wouls avoid making a decision on this point until other issues have been addressed, but I would suggest exploring if this is a viable route should they need it (as downsizing in these circumstances could be emotionally traumatic, and not overly helpful given the limited difference in value betweem propeties in some areas, the cost of moving and stamp duty etc).

Apreciating the above is quite a lot, as others have said it is important to explore all of those avenues to make sure that your parents have the right levels of support (both from you and professionals, across both their health and finances) moving forward.

💐OP that is really difficult. Sounds like my late FIL interesting what others say about low self esteem and depression

So sorry this is happening OP.

Agree with others about reporting to the police and speaking with the bank, to see if you can get any of your dad's money back. Get him assessed too by the GP as a precaution, and seek out a solicitor to get POA over your parents health and finances, it's much easier to do whilst your parents still have capacity to agree.

Is it also.worth checking your father's will? Is he likely to have changed it at all?

It sounds very much like he has been scammed and coerced. I don’t know if the money can be recovered but you definitely need to call the police to investigate and stop him doing this again. If you think it will carry more weight get the other people to report him also. And contact the bank once you have your crime number etc and see if they can do anything

Report to bank fraud department and police as a potential scam. He may not be the only one to have been persuaded to "invest".

additionally, how is this man contacting your dad? Can you block his number / email?

You dad is going to find it very hard to admit he has been conned and he'll probably be very ashamed. Contact the police and the bank. What money they have left could be put into another account your dad can't access. More importantly, I think if you speak to the right people at the bank and speak to the police in the right terms, there may be something that can be done. The crook could potentially be disqualified from being a company director and there are criminal penalties too.

There’s something not right here. Because of your parents age their account would be flagged as ‘vulnerable’
You say that £100,000 went out of the account in 2 years. The bank would have contacted both your mother and father.
Because of my age I know a lot of older people. They all have a story to tell how the bank have contacted them when they have seen unusual activity with moving money.
why would your parents loose their house? Surely at their age they will be mortgage free.

There should be a Vulnerable Customer policy at the bank , with large/regular transactions requiring additional authentication.

Is this man younger than your DF, OP? It's not possible he's some long-lost son, is it?

But if the bank rang your df he'd have said it was fine!

It's still worth reporting but I'd have low expectations.

Definitely this!! Every time I make a bank transfer the person I'm speaking to on the phone goes through a long speech asking if I've been coerced into making this payment and what it's for. I am sure they will take it seriously and advise on a way forward.

Exactly. If it can be shown that the bank didn’t follow ‘due diligence’ there is a case to get the money back.

PermanantTemporary
The conversation would go deeper than a mere enquiry as to “are you ok with this”

www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/retired-raf-pilot-house-stolen-6834289.amp

This is the gentleman I referred to earlier who lost everything to a really sophisticated cryptocurrency scam.

Posting link in vain hope of any parallels to your DF’s case OP?? V unlikely I know. And you mentioned a business & shop & not crypto.

Link is for general awareness really as well.

This poor man was actively looking to improve his investment returns & tried a seemingly reputable company dealing in cryptocurrency.

He invested only £50 to start with & then over time got groomed for more & more payments.

What happened as a result is truly awful.

It’s beyond comprehension the lengths these people will go to. I do hope you get some resolve OP & support for your poor DF.

Speak to the bank first; sometimes you can claim a chargeback if the man had a business account; but not sure if it applies for this sort of thing as is a well made scam.

Your poor parents. Most elderly people grew up without these sort of things and trust everyone