DH spent £45,000 without agreement. Can anything be done?

[Concernedd]

Hi,

Account NC and this is actually my parents rather than myself, but I am writing on behalf of my mother who is worried sick.

My mother and father have a joint bank account, although my mother never uses it. Over the last 2 years my father has sent a man £45,000 from this joint account without telling my mother. Apparently it was for a business deal which has since gone sour.

My father has no legal agreement with this guy and I think it was all a scam. My father sent the money to a company which I can see on Companies House has since been dissolved.

Can anything be done to get the money back? I don’t know if the fact it was a joint account makes any difference, as my mother didn’t consent?

Any advice appreciated.

You cannot set up a POA for anyone other than yourself (and anyone of any age should set one up).

So each of your parents should set one up. It's up to them who they appoint to act on their behalf if needed. A person setting up a POA has to have capacity when they do so.

Once a POA is in place, it doesn't mean it comes into force, so the appointees can't just act on the person's behalf without their say so. They can only do this if a POA is activated.

I worded my comment on setting up POA for both parents very clumsily.
I wanted to emphasise that both of them need a POA in place, not just the father here.

Dsis and I worked with my mother to get a LPA in place (different from POA) for both financial and end of life decisions. As part of the process, a doctor had to assess her as mentally competent to make end of life decisions ahead of time, understand the ramifications of the financial aspects, and assent to it.

A POA is only in place as long as the person it applies to has mental capacity, while a LPA is in place for life. This is why the doctor had to sign off on my mother (in Ireland).

In addition to the LPA, mum agreed that Dsis would receive notifications and alerts from mum's bank (again, in Ireland, not sure if this could be arranged in UK) and Dsis' email address was set up as the contact email for mum's account, with a combination of paper and email statements. This followed a near miss with a phone scammer.

@Concernedd is there any way you could find out if your dad took out loans to fund the scam? Is this why your parents are in danger of losing the house?

The bank and police haven't been contacted yet, how can you possibly say it's gone and that's that?
If this scammer is smart, he has moved it all offshore.

A local handy man befriended my late aunt who was quite well off and naive....did jobs ok and fair price for a few years....then quoted her 8k to paint garage doors...she paid him with a cheque and by accident i popped in...rushed to bank and stopped cheque etc...bank set up something so they would ring me about any transactions over a few hundred pounds to ensure nobody could rinse her cash etc....so when he tried again and got a cheque for 3k for a job, it was bounced automatically and bank rang and informed me....i spoke to handyman and told him to get lost....maybe your bank can set up something similar...??

@earsup that's awful so basically the handyman 'groomed' your aunt until he'd properly gained her trust. Shameful.

Contact the Financial Ombudsman Service. They have been helpful to me and my family in the past in respect of various bank issues and scams.

This is a common scam. Contact your father's bank. Go for a high level - even CEOs office. Explain he was scammed - they have a responsibility not to offer banking to fraudsters. Ask them to refund and hope. It worked for us.

And yet, the bank stopped my mother transferring a sum to a person we knew and contacted the police citing safeguarding. I had an interesting conversation with said officer as mum asked me to vouch but did then take into account the bank's view regarding the sums sent.

I would be asking the bank what their policy regarding safeguarding the vulnerable is

Actually, to a poster I saw saying you can’t get it back from the bank, it’s not strictly true (bank employee here)

banks/financial institutions have a duty of care to ensure that they are protecting the vulnerable, and there are a lot of regulations (some very recently added) to protect customers and to spot potential scams of this nature. If they fail to do this then they can actually return the money.

now that’s not to say they should, but you dad 💯 has a chance to sort this, he just has to contact the bank and ask about his options. A fraud case handler will investigate and although he may not get anything back, he might…don’t rule out the option of going to your bank, you can’t lose anything by doing it.

get authorisation to speak on his behalf in this case. They will just need to verify him before speaking with you.

they will advise you around going to action fraud/police etc too

I have had some recent experience with this.
Action Fraud are as much use as a chocolate teapot. Tell them, but don’t expect anything.

There are two possible sources of help

1. the bank. They have a responsibility to vulnerable customers. You may be able to get them to refund some of the money.

2. The Insolvency Service. They investigate and prosecute crooked company directors.

I would report this to action fraud this guy could be scamming loads of people get us much details as you can and give them a ring love x

You need to contact the company's appointed liquidator too. They have power to chase the company's money into the hands of the directors and knowing these facts will encourage that and increase the chance the creditors get back (and your dad must be a creditor). The liquidator also needs to know how much the company owes to its creditors. On the face of it, your dad is a creditor if he was putting money into the company as some sort of loan or investment.

Does your Dad have Parkinsons disease? It sounds wild but some Parkinsons medications increase the likelihood of reckless financial behaviour and I know of several cases where the drug manufacturers have been successfully sued and had to pay compensation.

Depends on the agreement when the account was opened - my joint account with DH requires both of us to co-sign anything over a certain amount.

I have not read the thread. Consider contacting Money Box on Radio 4 (BBC) as once they get involved sometimes things are paid back quickly BUT I don't know what the investment was here - may be it was legitimate but the company went bust and yes either person can spendmoney form a joint account.

Those considering powers of attorney - the rules changed massively in the last few years and they are not the same as they used to be - so do make sure you look at the latest versions for health etc . They are totally different from the kind when my father had one for example who died in 2008. Speak to a solicitor.

Hi OP, I’m sorry to hear this, your poor parents.
Can I ask if the dodgy man’s initials are J.O.? If so, I have info that may help.

He's probably just applied for a voluntary dissolution or failed to file accounts or a Confirmation Statement which automatically triggers a striking off. For someone like that, doing nothing is easier.

If somebody scammed my elderly father for that amount of money, their house would be burning down at 3am next time they went on holiday. Or at least both cars.

You have to get a doctor to talk to your dad to assess him (talk to his GP for help). Often, with dementia, those who are the closest are the last to realise sth's off. Also, it often starts with "weird" (small) things.
Then get a lawyer (and this I think is urgent!) and go to court to have him declared unfit if possible (don't remember the legal term, sorry). This is really important, because he might go around signing things and getting into debt and you'll all be none the wiser until it's too late.
This old lady with dementia got MARRIED! Yes, married, to a guy half her age and the daughter only found out after she'd passed away. He got everything, including her body (literally, as he made the funeral arrangements).
Another story, closer to home, my great-aunt had started being "a little weird" when she was 60-ish and, at the time, my uncle who'd been living with her for like he's whole life, never caught on to it! When my mother finally took charge of her finances after her diagnosis of senile dementia lots of money/jewellery had gone missing and listen to this: my mom took her to the bank once and my aunt looks at the guy who managed all her assets (she was well-off back in the day) and says "oh, I'm sorry for being so late, I should have come before to my pay debt to you". My mom goes like, excuse me?? No, he's the one who should give you money not the other way around! She clammed up and the money was gone as it was too late.
Best of luck to you!

Could your father be being blackmailed by this man?

oceanus I think you're talking about predatory marriage, which is a scary thing - I remember reading about it last year (sorry op, bit off-topic to your thread)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/03/the-guardian-view-on-predatory-marriage-new-safeguards-are-needed

At this stage I wouldn't be spending money on a solicitor. I would definitely make arrangements to speak to the banks fraud department. You will need to do this with either your mom or dad initiating it.

I would arrange to speak to the Police about it, chances are if they are doing this to your dad they are probably doing it to at least one other person.

Whatever happens you have to sit down and speak to your dad and stop him from sending any more money to this guy. The guy will get upset and probably try applying pressure to your dad so be prepared for that. Another good reason to get the Police involved as soon as possible.

Tough love comes to mind, you need to be firm with your dad but don't make him sound like a fool for having done this. You also need to work to find him a hobby that will bring about a new circle of friends. Maybe something both your parents can get involved with. Anything from Bingo to helping at a food bank, depending how fit he is maybe walking football, joining your local 'wombles' to litter pick.

Any update op? Did you go to the bank/ police?

Hi,

Thanks for all the advice.

No real update I am afraid. My parents are refusing to go to the bank as they insist it’s not fraud and my father gave the money willingly. I am confident my father has no medical issues, like I said earlier he is just incredibly easy to manipulate. He has a history of falling for get rich quick schemes and this seems like a particularly bad one…

My parents are planning on cornering the guy somehow and getting him to acknowledge the debt. I don’t think this will work. My father only has a phone number for him. If they spook him he could change his phone number and that would be it. We have no address for him and will never find him again.

I’ve told my mother to go to the bank but she is adamant they won’t do anything. Is there anything I could say to convince her?

Could you go to the bank yourself and ask what the options are?

If you have no luck down the usual roots (bank, consumer advice, police) then try consumer and money shows like BBC Radio 4's MoneyBox. It's amazing how quickly official help snaps to action when it's aired publically. I recently heard a tragic story of an older man who literally lost everything to a bitcoin swindler on there. He then started to get help from the bank. Another, where a man had had his buy-to-let property stolen by a scammer who faked his property paperwork, Police originally claimed it was not an issue for them but were then forced to investigate.