Why is children's behaviour worse these days?

[salviapages]

I recently retrained as a primary teacher, did placements in a few schools then worked as a supply teacher so seen a wide range and I've been shocked at the behaviour. Nothing like how I remember kids in my class at primary being.

Every teacher I've spoken to about this says behaviour has gotten worse over the years and I've seen mumsnetters say the same, including in the current thread about teachers leaving the profession.

So - why is this? Have we changed how we raise children? Have schools changed? Why the rise in bad behaviour?

Urgh! I was on a train earlier today with DDS and some kid was shouting and balling with his friends and being rude. Not once did the mother say to him to calm down.
dh was getting pissed off too. We got off the train and waited to one side to make sure we were not going in the same direction so we could avoid the noise.
The kid was off the scale and dds were rolling their eyes at him, they were getting pissed off too. He was the same age as dds.

I see someone alerted a Gentle Parenting group somewhere of this

why would you want your children to fear you?!

Controversial opinion - I actually DO want my children to fear me in a certain way. Not cowering in a corner worried I’ll be cruel. But to fear the notion of upsetting or disrespecting me. the same way I fear things like fucking up at work or with my boss, because it would be detrimental to everyone and our working relationship. I’ve NEVER seen gentle parenting work any way other than kids not giving two shits if they’re pushing their mum to the brink, or being so absorbed in their own importance that they alienate their peers. I don’t want that kind of kid.

@Organictangerine

Ok let’s take my daughter’s bedtime antics this evening - throwing cups of water out of the bath onto the bathroom floor. I give her one warning that if she does it again I will remove the toy cups. She does it again, I remove them. The only ‘gentle parent’ I know uploaded a clip of their similar age child flinging water onto the kitchen floor from the sink as the mum laughed along indulgently, so I’m assuming my ‘punishment’ wasn’t in the spirit of gentle parenting?

Maybe the mum didn't mind her kid doing that or she planned to mop the kitchen after anyways or whatever? DD has made a mess before entirely with my permission. It's funny and fun. She also clears up/gets consequences when she does make a mess intentionally when she knows it's not ok.

You're assuming that kid was splashing water against his mother's wishes and use that as a reason why "gentle parenting" doesn't work.

@Organictangerine

Ok let’s take my daughter’s bedtime antics this evening - throwing cups of water out of the bath onto the bathroom floor. I give her one warning that if she does it again I will remove the toy cups. She does it again, I remove them. The only ‘gentle parent’ I know uploaded a clip of their similar age child flinging water onto the kitchen floor from the sink as the mum laughed along indulgently, so I’m assuming my ‘punishment’ wasn’t in the spirit of gentle parenting?

As I’ve said before gentle parenting has boundaries, many people mistake gentle parenting for permissive parenting which is maybe what your friend is doing. I would have done similar to you in this situation, I would have advised that the cups are for use in the bath and not for putting water on the floor and that I will have to remove them if they can’t use them in the right way, then followed through as you did.

But what about nursery? Should he be able to throw bowls of water on the floor because mum indulges it at home? And the staff have to clean it up? It very much wasn’t against her wishes, that’s the point - ‘gentle’ parenting assume wider society’s boundaries will be as lenient as they are with their child. When they won’t be.

@PlasticineMeg

I see someone alerted a Gentle Parenting group somewhere of this

why would you want your children to fear you?!

Controversial opinion - I actually DO want my children to fear me in a certain way. Not cowering in a corner worried I’ll be cruel. But to fear the notion of upsetting or disrespecting me. the same way I fear things like fucking up at work or with my boss, because it would be detrimental to everyone and our working relationship. I’ve NEVER seen gentle parenting work any way other than kids not giving two shits if they’re pushing their mum to the brink, or being so absorbed in their own importance that they alienate their peers. I don’t want that kind of kid.

Again I think your thinking of permissive parenting. I do not want my kids to fear me in any way but you are entitled to your option as are we all, I just didn’t want people to mistake what gentle parenting is actually about which a lot of people seem to be doing!

Well looks like I’m a Gentle Parent then, even though I occasionally raise my voice or tell her she’s being naughty

@Organictangerine

But what about nursery? Should he be able to throw bowls of water on the floor because mum indulges it at home? And the staff have to clean it up? It very much wasn’t against her wishes, that’s the point - ‘gentle’ parenting assume wider society’s boundaries will be as lenient as they are with their child. When they won’t be.

Indeed. There’s plenty of ways to play with water whilst being respectful of mess etc. I bet mummy cleaned up all on her own (and will wonder one day why she’s seen as some unpaid maid)

I notice with some colleagues on Zoom that they literally allow their nine/ten year old DCs to come and interrupt meetings and I just cannot fathom such a lack of boundaries. Letting kids interrupt, etc. A friend of mine watched her kid (5 years old) punch me twice then said 'now come on, that's a silly game'. No telling off, no consequence. I don't believe in smacking and not even the naughty step to be honest, but to not even react to bad behaviour with consequences or a telling off is shocking to me. And does not lead to nice children.

@Preg19 I actually didn’t realise there were hard definitions of these parenting techniques, but on that basis most people I know are ‘gentle’ parents but I know too many ‘permissive’ parents who have, in the spirit of being A Good Mummy, have created entitled little monsters.

I almost get it though. Parenting is hard - it’s harder these days because the vast majority of parents have to both work, life is much faster paced and it’s all very tiring in general. We are all guilty now and again of doing whatever we have to for an easy life!

@Organictangerine

Well looks like I’m a Gentle Parent then, even though I occasionally raise my voice or tell her she’s being naughty

There is nothing wrong with that! We are all doing our best 😀

[quote PlasticineMeg]@Preg19 I actually didn’t realise there were hard definitions of these parenting techniques, but on that basis most people I know are ‘gentle’ parents but I know too many ‘permissive’ parents who have, in the spirit of being A Good Mummy, have created entitled little monsters.

I almost get it though. Parenting is hard - it’s harder these days because the vast majority of parents have to both work, life is much faster paced and it’s all very tiring in general. We are all guilty now and again of doing whatever we have to for an easy life![/quote]
Yes I think we are all trying our best 😀

Haven’t read the whole thread but it seems the theory behind gentle parenting is now being applied to teaching too. I’m a teacher and there’s not a single sanction I have available to me. If I even raised my voice, I’d have a parent complaining by 3.01pm. We aren’t allowed to use golden time charts anymore because it’s ‘shaming’ children. Bizarre when somehow every child in my class at primary school was ‘shamed’ in this way and yet not one of us would have lost golden time on a Friday because you can guarantee we’d behave the entire week due to respecting the teachers. My parents would never have dreamed of contacting my teacher to tell them how to do their job, they trusted they were qualified and if I’d done something wrong that was the end of it.

The other thing majorly impacting behaviour is technology. Even television back then was nothing compared to it is now. When I was a child there was rarely a kids programme on so I didn’t have much interest in the tv. I got the spice girls DVD and watched it over and over again from start to finish for months. I wouldn’t get bored 5 minutes in then play a game on my iPad instead because I had no iPad and had no other choices to entertain myself with. It was that or be bored! Nowadays there are so many channels to choose from, children flick between them or watch 2 minutes of a YouTube video before changing to another one. There is no reason why they should stick anything out and there is no opportunity at any point to be bored. The fact they have literally never been bored prior to arriving at school means their brains are programmed for instant entertainment, flashing lights and loud noises. As a teacher, I can’t provide that all day long. I’ve had so many extremely rude children declare to the class ‘I’M BORED!’ or ‘but I don’t want to’ when asked to do something they don’t like. They have absolutely no concept of how real life works.

I have a baby now and have vowed he won’t be one of these children. He won’t have an iPad and I keep the tv off whenever he’s there as much as possible. So many parents haven’t seen what I’ve seen in schools so probably think this is quite an extreme approach but I just won’t let my child be that rude, misbehaving child who makes the teacher’s life a misery all year. Something needs to change or there will be no teachers left soon. I’ve set up my own business and I’m on the road out asap! It’s an impossible job and I can’t imagine how hard it will be in 30 or 40 years time!

@Organictangerine

But what about nursery? Should he be able to throw bowls of water on the floor because mum indulges it at home? And the staff have to clean it up? It very much wasn’t against her wishes, that’s the point - ‘gentle’ parenting assume wider society’s boundaries will be as lenient as they are with their child. When they won’t be.

Again you're assuming.

DD is (and has been) allowed to do quite a number of things that she wouldn't dream to do at nursery or school. At home is where she learns,tests the limits,figures out what's ok and what isn't and experiments (with actions and language).

At school there's a clear set of rules that she follows.

After reading this thread turns out I was a gentle parent . That was before I could hear my mother's voice in my rants...sorry discipline, and I pulled myself together and worked to change. Which was actually a lot harder than being strict and no this and no that,insisting I'm always right and she needs to do what i say always ,right now, because I said so.Yes we talk a lot,we discuss things. She has clear ,set boundaries. She has warnings. We discuss if a boundary can be changed/removed. We sometimes do things that other's maybe wouldn't or think it's wrong. We talk about consequences and why they are given. I explain sometimes why a no is no and then ask for her opinion. We have some non negotiables and a lot more meh,what's the harm? She has reasonable choices. She has some control and options where it's not a big thing but it does affect only her.The list is long.

She is a very polite,kind and well behaved kid. That's not me saying it(I still think she's a pain in the butt at times) , it's all her teachers ,other adults in school and her friend's parents. In fact,she's so good she always gets invited for playdates if the parents need a bit of a break or have something to sort. They know she's good and sensible and will entertain their kid so they can get on with their own stuff. If she was that bad she wouldn't get invited over and over again ,sometimes for a whole day.

Everyone saying they didn't ever see gentle parenting turning out well is because they don't know. They see a well behaved kid and assume it CAN'T be gentle parenting. They see bad behaviour (or what they perceive it is bad behaviour) and they assume it MUST be gentle parenting. Confirmation bias at it's best.

Assuming what Idontwanna? That if a 2 year old discovers lobbing water on the floor at home is fun then he is likely to try it at nursery? Yes I do assume that

I think gentle parenting works better when you only have one child itms

Gentle parenting just means validating the child’s feelings. It doesn’t mean no boundaries and getting their own way. Eg “I know you want to throw water on the bathroom floor as it’s fun to you isn’t it? Well it will damage the bathroom floor. I can’t let you do that so if you do that again I’m taking that cup off you.” Rather than just taking the cup with no explanation and the child just thinking your spoiling their fun.

@Twentysplenty

Gentle parenting just means validating the child’s feelings. It doesn’t mean no boundaries and getting their own way. Eg “I know you want to throw water on the bathroom floor as it’s fun to you isn’t it? Well it will damage the bathroom floor. I can’t let you do that so if you do that again I’m taking that cup off you.” Rather than just taking the cup with no explanation and the child just thinking your spoiling their fun.

There’s no way she would understand all of that. It’s just ‘that’s naughty. If you throw water on the floor again, I will take the cups away’ Then boom, cups are taken if she throws water again I’m amazed anyone thinks a 2 year old has the ability to understand what you just wrote if I’m honest!

The vast majority of (good) gentle parenting is just positive parenting, which is absolutely normal/mainstream parenting. Gentle parenting isn't something special or new. Some of the wrappers like not saying no/naughty might be but they don't really matter, it's just a stylistic
choice, much like time out/naughty step/thinking step don't change because you call it a different thing.

I would have taken the cup away as well - that's drawing a boundary. But I also think fairly basic/obvious. Perhaps the mum in the video was trying to say something against "the norm" or whatever, I don't know.

I don't get on top of the kids if they are being a bit rough and some water slops over the edge. Our bathroom is tiled so I just put a towel down and see it as saving me from mopping behind the toilet. Cups being tipped out is over my tolerance level though. I would have first reminded them to pour inside the bath, I might have suggested some game that I thought might be more compelling - see if you can pour it into this container, wash these bubbles off (or whatever) IME usually this would be enough to put a stop to it, but I would take the cup away if they were really intent on pouring it out of the bath. I would also show them the water on the floor to see that it was making a mess/hazard, unless they were in that total loo-la crazy overtired hyper mode, in which case forget it. Again I think all of this is pretty standard though? Or maybe it's not? I think Janet Lansbury would probably suggest saying something like "You're showing me you need help to be sensible with the cup" which I think is a bit passive aggressive TBH :o

DH would probably say no, that is naughty. I wouldn't say that because I have some baggage about the word naughty, but also just don't think it is very helpful as a concept. I would probably start with the positively worded sentence saying what I want (Keep the water in the bath) and then change to "I'm going to take this cup away now, I don't want water on the floor." Or maybe even just "I don't want water on the floor." It's wordy but my 3yo could follow that fine.

In fact I think maybe the difference is I would take it without giving a warning - I know that sounds a bit chaotic so I'm trying to think how to explain it. But I don't like the thing where you basically tell them "I'm going to test your impulse control now. Right, OK, you failed the test." I can already see that they have an impulse to pour water out of the bath, I know their impulse control is underdeveloped because they are little and even lower than normal because they are tired, and so I feel it is somewhat setting them up to fail to say "If you do that again I will..." I don't really want to give them a choice and then judge the choice as being right or wrong. I would rather give information and see if they are going to collaborate with me, and step in to prevent harm when necessary. If I take the cup then I'm doing it to save my floor, not because I want to deprive them of fun in order that they associate that with disobeying. I might well swap it with something else fun but less splashy. I might even distract them with something else and then quietly remove it (I would be less likely to do that these days, as I've learned more about how important it is to be clear and upfront about boundaries). I'd certainly do that for my 7mo because they wouldn't understand the explanation of the boundary anyway.

Not saying this way is better BTW, just trying to explore what my thought process is for how I'd handle this fairly common scenario and why - I wouldn't be thinking through and making these decisions on a micro level every time, it's more of a background to how I tend to act.

@Organictangerine ah I have a 4 year old. I was thinking what I’d say to him, sorry I forgot what 2 years are like. However that’s the essence of gentle parenting though, just respecting your child’s feelings too as much as you’d respect a peer. Not giving into them but accepting them.

@fedupwithitnow

I think gentle parenting works better when you only have one child itms

That is very possible. I have no experience of doing it with more than one child.

As a TA I do use some of the tactics in classroom and they work most of the time(after all kids are kids) but that's a different setup/environment. I did find though that building trust and relationships with the trickier children ,although exhausting and sometimes limited by said environment, can and does produce better outcomes. But again, that works better on an individual level rather than addressing a whole class.

There’s no way she would understand all of that. It’s just ‘that’s naughty. If you throw water on the floor again, I will take the cups away’. Then boom, cups are taken if she throws water again.

Exactly. Engaging in subtle negotiations and psychological analysis of the situation with a toddler or small child is ridiculous. What's needed is calm clarity and following up on consequences.

@Fairislefandango

There’s no way she would understand all of that. It’s just ‘that’s naughty. If you throw water on the floor again, I will take the cups away’. Then boom, cups are taken if she throws water again.

Exactly. Engaging in subtle negotiations and psychological analysis of the situation with a toddler or small child is ridiculous. What's needed is calm clarity and following up on consequences.

I'm quite inclined to agree because such a lengthy explanation tends to be past a 2 yo's attention span and understanding.

There is a time and a place ,and ideally you start small and start young and build on it even if it's not in the moment. For example even if the water thing was "no, you can't do that. If you do it again the cups go away" I'd use another situation to explain that the floor gets wet, it can get damaged,the mats can get mould,mould is bad etc. And why splashing water on tiles ,while mummy is watching and playing too and cleaning it up right after can be ok. Time and a place. It's hard work though. And in some days when everyone is tired ,stressed and about 15 things have gone wrong already ofc it goes all out the window.. "Because I said so that's why!"

Because I said so that's why!

Classic . At the end of my tether the other day I snapped these words I hadn’t heard since my childhood.

I have three children ranging from teenager to baby, it does work in households with multiple children.