Why is children's behaviour worse these days?

[salviapages]

I recently retrained as a primary teacher, did placements in a few schools then worked as a supply teacher so seen a wide range and I've been shocked at the behaviour. Nothing like how I remember kids in my class at primary being.

Every teacher I've spoken to about this says behaviour has gotten worse over the years and I've seen mumsnetters say the same, including in the current thread about teachers leaving the profession.

So - why is this? Have we changed how we raise children? Have schools changed? Why the rise in bad behaviour?

Tbh, and I know this is controversial, but I don't personally agree with the notion that children should come first i.e. above the parents' relationship with each other. When kids are given the message that everything revolves around them, they can't really be blamed for acting like it does, and acting out when boundaries are imposed.

I have found my people!

I totally agree - and I remind my kids that MY happiness is important too. And equally important, not second to theirs. For example on holiday they WILL schlep around the boring art museum that I want to visit, because it’s my holiday as well and that’s my interest. If I have to tolerate fucking Chocco-chocco Latte and the Music Man in the evening mini disco, they can spare me an hour to appreciate my hobby.

I once posted that on MN and got an absolute shitstorm of shame. Holidays are for kids, apparently

I was reading about consumerism earlier and it made me think about how stuff is a lot cheaper generally. When I compare how many toys my youngest has to how many I had in the 80s it’s shocking. It’s easy to get new stuff all the time and maybe that means we have less respect for property in general, not having to save up just for a small toy because it can be bought on a random trip to town. Maybe that feeds into the more “entitled” attitude that’s been mentioned upthread?

Doesn’t need to be all “plastic tat” either, I love the naice wooden toys and all that but it’s easy to overbuy fancy aspirational toys too.

Was interested that someone upthread mentioned the scandi clothing and markers like that - definitely recognise that, maybe it’s because of the community I’m in (home ed) but there are plenty of incredibly badly behaved kids dressed in perfect Frugi clothes etc. Lots of shunning of the word no.

I also agree about parenting styles being more of a thing now, it’s become commodified, having a “method” rather than just doing the best you can

And further on from my ‘working mums aren’t a new thing’ comment - I wasn’t routinely smacked either. I was smacked on the bum once when I told my mum to fuck off. I think she did it mostly in shock. But my friends were never smacked either. I was born early 80’s.

@BertieBotts

I completely agree Porcelain in a situation where risk is involved but that is not usually the case in a classroom, is it?

Well I can think of plenty of quite ordinary school related activities where this would apply: swimming lessons, field trips, climbing wall etc.

I don’t know. I listen to some of the things my mother and cohorts l got up to when she was young astound me.

They all smoked, stole, skipped school and teacher assaults were commonplace. I certainly didn’t do any of that.

My daughter is 7 so only time will tell but I really would be astounded if any of her year attacked a teacher

I think there are definitely things specific to 'kids today' that aren't necessarily bad behaviour but wouldn't be so common even twenty years ago - things I've seen a lot when friends come to play and as a volunteer at things like brownies and playgroup and on school trips -
Table manners are pretty shocking - eg ten years olds eating whole sausages off forks rather than cutting them up , not using cutlery, not even thinking of taking plate away . I remember my parents weren't strict with this but I knew if I went to a friends I had to use cutlery properly etc. Possibly less family mealtimes , more treat meals when cutlery not needed ?

• over eating generally - eg constantly saying 'I'm hungry' even when they've had plenty to Eat and asking for more food all the time - also fussiness I would eat whatever I was given for fear of being rude as a kid .

Kids being pretty rubbish at please and thank yous. My middle class well behaved brownies were terrible for this . Kids being generally grabby such as at a party asking if they can have an extra party bag for sibling (nor at the party) again I never would have even considered doing this .

Because children are now in charge in a lot of families (not all).
They rule what people eat, where they sleep (look at the amount of co-sleepers there are now cos the poor wains cannot possibly get put in their own rooms) etc etc.
In no way am I a ‘seen and not heard’ person, but it does seem that there is a lack of respect, discipline and boundaries in a lot of families now which leads to poor behaviour.

Frankly I am a seen and not heard person.

I wasn’t allowed to disturb other people as a child and I don’t think todays children should be either.

@Roundeartheratchriatmas

Frankly I am a seen and not heard person.

I wasn’t allowed to disturb other people as a child and I don’t think todays children should be either.

Have to say I’m surprised at the amount of friends who allow their children to interrupt our conversations. Mine get told to wait if they do it, unless they’re on fire. The gentle parent friend I cut loose used to not only allow her children to interrupt, but they’d whisper in her ear in front of me - things like “Can I have a biscuit” or “Sister called me a poo poo”. As in stuff that’s no sensitive to hear. I was always taught whispering was extremely rude, and I still think it is!

PlasticineMeg

Absolutely I do not understand why people don’t just tell them to wait or to come back later. We had to so clearly it is achievable.

Such a lack of basic manners.

@Roundeartheratchriatmas - right, that’s it, we must be real life friends I totally agree. It might not matter in the grand scheme of things but little things go a long way in the Journey To Entitlement.

PlasticineMeg consider yourself friended.

*I have found my people!

I totally agree - and I remind my kids that MY happiness is important too. And equally important, not second to theirs. For example on holiday they WILL schlep around the boring art museum that I want to visit, because it’s my holiday as well and that’s my interest. If I have to tolerate fucking Chocco-chocco Latte and the Music Man in the evening mini disco, they can spare me an hour to appreciate my hobby.

I once posted that on MN and got an absolute shitstorm of shame. Holidays are for kids, apparently*

I completely agree with this, you shouldn't have to martyr your own happiness when you become a parent. My mum is of the opinion that I must do everything for DS, or DH. Heaven forbid I do a single thing for myself or by myself. As a child I felt so stifled by her, she gave me so much attention and that was lovely but I really wanted to have time to be by myself.

There was a thread a while ago by a poster who was worried about complaining about really shitty service for fear of being called a ‘Karen’. I was so disheartened to see the amount of poster who wouldn’t complain when their teenagers were present in case they embarrassed them. I mean:

1. Teenagers are embarrassed if their parents so much as blink the wrong way and this attitude shouldn’t be pandered to
2. Being embarrassed by your parents is a rite of passage
3. It’s a good opportunity to example standing up for yourself and being authoritative, and you’re robbing them off that in fear that your kids won’t think you’re cool.

It smacks of desperation TBH. Our kids love us - we don’t need to be their best buddy for that to happen.

My kids have manners and are well behaved

Because I said no and didn't let them interrupt. Carried through with boundaries for bad behaviour.

I got looks and judgement but I'm now proud of my kids

Yes but immediate compliance in a safety situation is just common sense - I have that rule for my DC if we're cooking together for example, or next to roads. They seem to manage this perfectly well even though I don't expect immediate unquestioning compliance when we are tidying up, getting dressed or playing a board game.

Because children are now in charge in a lot of families (not all).

Yes 100%. Someone may come along and say well that’s how it should be, it should be all about them and their needs… but there’s a difference between putting their needs first and their ‘wants’ first and the parent literally not being the one in control. I think many don’t see the difference between ‘needs’ and ‘wants’. Of course children should always have what they need - they definitely shouldn’t always have what they want.
But maybe that’s just people in general - you see the same with dog owners 🤷‍♀️ People have just become push overs. It doesn’t make for good parenting (or dog ownership).

@BlueThursday

I don’t know. I listen to some of the things my mother and cohorts l got up to when she was young astound me.

They all smoked, stole, skipped school and teacher assaults were commonplace. I certainly didn’t do any of that.

My daughter is 7 so only time will tell but I really would be astounded if any of her year attacked a teacher

Difference was the teacher could throw a punch back. 😂

@maddiemookins16mum

Because children are now in charge in a lot of families (not all). They rule what people eat, where they sleep (look at the amount of co-sleepers there are now cos the poor wains cannot possibly get put in their own rooms) etc etc. In no way am I a ‘seen and not heard’ person, but it does seem that there is a lack of respect, discipline and boundaries in a lot of families now which leads to poor behaviour.

Absolutely 100%

We flew long haul last week. Eleven hours on a plane. Mostly, any children were fine. But there was one little madam, maybe 4 (?) who threw a series of epic tantrums. Her useless parents did the whole, ineffectual 'reasoning' with her. Kept threatening punishments, then back tracking. Always kept their voices very gentle. Lots of 'Please don't smack me, it makes Mummy sad' nonsense.

At no point did either of her parents ever have any control or authority over her. Nothing. I expect she was over-tired and flooded with big emotions that she didn't know how to control. And I think it actually scared her that neither of her feeble parents could control her either.

@AppleKatie

Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants.

Socrates

‘‘Twas ever this.

@AppleKatie dammit you beat me to it

@BertieBotts

Yes but immediate compliance in a safety situation is just common sense - I have that rule for my DC if we're cooking together for example, or next to roads. They seem to manage this perfectly well even though I don't expect immediate unquestioning compliance when we are tidying up, getting dressed or playing a board game.

Apologies for labouring the point- it's great that your dc do this and have common sense - but you cannot rely on that being the case which is why we have safety drills. Adults and dc can panic in unexpected emergency situations. And not all dc are exposed to parenting which is as good as yours Bertie.

But my wider point is that while we definitely do not want to raise unthinking sheep, I think it's wise to teach dc to respect the wishes of adults who know more about a particular subject or activity than they do, especially if they want to learn to do that activity well.

This may sound obvious and simple but trust me, I am involved in an activity where dc and teens have to:

• turn up regularly
• take turns and don't mess around while waiting for their turn
• don't touch anything they are not supposed to
• treat the equipment with respect
• follow simple instructions
• help clean up afterwards

Honestly, you would not believe the number of nt dc who can't do some or any of the above or protest at having to do them, or give various excuses as to why they can't. And they disrupt the activity for the well behaved dc. And I am not talking about 'spirited' dc who are welcomed but dc who are deliberately destructive and argumentative. And when this behaviour is repeated week after week and you appeal to their parents, the parents look at you quizzically and ...guess what...start questioning the authority and experience of me and my fellow volunteers who have been doing the activity for over twenty years each and what's more do it voluntarily and free of charge in our spare time and are recognised and tested regularly by various governing bodies to check we are up to snuff. They can never believe somehow that their dc could do anything wrong so by that logic, there must be something wrong with us or our methods!

It's getting to the point that we can't find volunteers because we spend at least 40% of each lesson dealing with disruption and nonsense. I am thinking of packing it in myself. Having to constantly police poor behaviour leaches the fun from it all. And I am particularly dismayed by how dc behave when the focus is not directly on them.

@PlasticineMeg

There was a thread a while ago by a poster who was worried about complaining about really shitty service for fear of being called a ‘Karen’. I was so disheartened to see the amount of poster who wouldn’t complain when their teenagers were present in case they embarrassed them. I mean:

1. Teenagers are embarrassed if their parents so much as blink the wrong way and this attitude shouldn’t be pandered to
2. Being embarrassed by your parents is a rite of passage
3. It’s a good opportunity to example standing up for yourself and being authoritative, and you’re robbing them off that in fear that your kids won’t think you’re cool.

It smacks of desperation TBH. Our kids love us - we don’t need to be their best buddy for that to happen.

Being the embarrassing parent of a teen is one of life’s highlights.

You can be an firm parent with strict boundaries and and standards, and make your kids scared of misbehaving without ever having to resort to smacking or any threat of violence. My teens know if they are rude or misbehave I will have great joy in turning them into social outcasts. You gonna talk to me like a piece of shit? Oh damn, I accidentally put my red bra in with you pristine white Calvin Kline boxers. Shucks. My bad. Got a detention for not doing your homework? Aw well you will just have to miss the first week of the new Fortnite season. Found you sending unkind messages on WhatsApp to another kid? Bye bye smart phone, hello cheap Nokia…. You can punish, and make kids fear the punishment, without ever raising a hand.

My dc, who’s 9, got into a full on fist fight with his best friend at the play park after school last summer. Dc was banned for a week from going to the park - and had to write an apology. Every day he watched his friends go and play whilst he had to go straight home and miss out. His friend who was equally responsible? No punishment at all and is now a little sod who constantly tries to goad my dc and others into trouble whilst his mum ignores his behaviour and if it’s mentioned just says “well that’s just what he’s like, just a lively character”

My kids are in their mid-teens.

The difference? They are better behaved than I or my siblings were but fuck me are they disorganised. I mean in comparison with me and my cohort. This is despite my best efforts and when I've mentioned it to the school they don't seem to think there's really a problem with late homeworks, forgetting stuff etc. I feel I have to remind them of lots of things that they should just know. While I try to take a step back often that just doesn't work. I can't see either of them deciding to move out at 18 for college or whatever.

They do really seem much younger than I'd have expected them to be at their ages. I do think there has been a big change there in society. 18-year olds are definitely treated more like children now than they were and aren't expected to be as self-sufficient. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, it's just a change.

The next person who trots out that bloody Socrates quote needs to stand in the corner.

And I think it actually scared her that neither of her feeble parents could control her either.

^

Agree with this too. Kids need a boundary to feel safe. BIL has always said this, his three now adult children are exemplary