Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

[HappyWinter]

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

well yes Alexandra we can't give in, agreed. But the man has hinted at nuclear weopons. He also has a track record of fulfilling his threats.

By actually facing that head on, there's more chance of handling it in as effective manner as possible than by running from the idea. Sometimes by hoping for the best but planning for the worst, you get further than by glossing over that the worst might happen.

RTB put it a lot better than I can.

The cynicism of that leaflet the Russians are putting out is just .. surreal though. It's like living with an abusive person. They say something and you wonder 'is it them or is it me?!" after you've dealt with them for too long.

After successful testing, Ukrainian company UA Dynamics will start handing over its "Punisher" drones to Ukrainian troops (for free).
The production of the drones was funded completely by crowdsourced donations
twitter.com/vorobyov/status/1515333303544557574?t=3TzjwynyBvlq3iQnQg1hug&s=19

[quote DuncinToffee]After successful testing, Ukrainian company UA Dynamics will start handing over its "Punisher" drones to Ukrainian troops (for free).
The production of the drones was funded completely by crowdsourced donations
twitter.com/vorobyov/status/1515333303544557574?t=3TzjwynyBvlq3iQnQg1hug&s=19[/quote]
Another example of Ukrainian ingenuity....

[quote Alexandra2001]@ScrollingLeaves Aren't most of the soldiers in Ukrain from its far flung corners? i think Putin will let their deaths be leaked out over a very long period of time.....

Perhaps by allowing us to believe 100s of '000s of ukrainians have been deported, it means he can deny Genocide and say they are in Russia, living happily but stop access to these "camps"

This is why we can't give in to Putin, if we do, he wont stop.[/quote]
Genocide does not require people to die. Forceable deportation is sufficient.

They do not need to live in camps either

@Ijsbear

well yes Alexandra we can't give in, agreed. But the man has hinted at nuclear weopons. He also has a track record of fulfilling his threats.

By actually facing that head on, there's more chance of handling it in as effective manner as possible than by running from the idea. Sometimes by hoping for the best but planning for the worst, you get further than by glossing over that the worst might happen.

RTB put it a lot better than I can.

The cynicism of that leaflet the Russians are putting out is just .. surreal though. It's like living with an abusive person. They say something and you wonder 'is it them or is it me?!" after you've dealt with them for too long.

Reminder

The official line over the Moskva is that it sank following an on board accident amid poor weather.

Yet Russian state tv said that the attack on the Moskva merited reprisals and the bombing of Kyiv.

Russia response was to bomb the factory producing Neptunes which didn't sink the Moskva.

Russian state tv guests and pundits do not believe the official government line. It is promoting a line which is contary to the official line.

In other words
The Russian state knows it lies
The Russian people know the state lies
We know the Russian people know the state lies.
Yet there is this constant knowing what we know but not being able to assert the truth either.

Two different sources about unclaimed dead russians

Oleksiy Arestovych, adviser to the head of Ukraine's presidential administration, said they tried to return the bodies of 3,000 troops early on in the war but Russia refused, saying it did not believe their casualties were so high.

He told the Washington Post: 'They said, "We don't believe in such quantities. We don't have this number. We're not ready to accept them."'

DGRossetti you said you marched with CND in the 80's. It's a very sad thing to realise that the one country that gave up its nuclear weapons was .. Ukraine. I fear that CND got it wrong

Oh, I wasn't that sincere.* But it was an age, my age, a time, my time, when I had to do something. Maybe it was that which ruled me out for a job at Sellafield (never found out why I didn't get it).

A good antidote has been watching "The Death of Stalin". Which is also another Putin-pissing-off action of minor dissent.

*Still see fuck all point in Trident though.

Kevin Rothrock @kevinrothrock 4 days ago
Here’s “Donetsk People’s Republic” defense spokesman Eduard Basurin advocating the use of “chemical troops” against Mariupol’s last-remaining defenders. “They’ll find a way to smoke these moles out of their holes,” he says.

Kevin Rothrock @kevinrothrock
Ukrainian intelligence now claims that the FSB has arrested Basurin, apparently for letting the cat out of the bag regarding the plan to poison Mariupol’s defenders.

Basurin was repeating what was suggested on state tv!

www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/16/7339988/
Russian troops in Mariupol to ban all movement in the city in preparation for “filtration” and mobilisation operation

Russian occupying troops in Mariupol are preparing to close all entries and exits to Mariupol and ban all movement in the city on 18 April in order to carry out a "filtration" operation among the city’s male population, some of whom will be mobilised.

Afp news agency @afp
#BREAKING 'Elimination' of last Ukrainian troops trapped in Mariupol would end Moscow talks: President Zelensky

Re: the reality vs. the propaganda as posted earlier in this thread, if this SSU telephone intercept is not fake:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=LDeoe5wAelw

Supporters of Ruzzian Mir weep and wail under occupation

^This is evidenced by a telephone conversation intercepted by the SSU between a militant of the so-called DNR (whose unit is now stationed in Kherson region) and his relative who lives in Tarasivka villiage, Zaporizhia region.
Influenced by Russian propaganda, the woman had a different image of ‘liberators’, but the reality is shocking.
‘Seryozha, come here and see what’s happening here! I’m not telling you some bullsh*t! I always believed you! I believed, as you explained to me about the Banderites - I hated them. Now, who should I hate?’ the woman asks her nephew.
She does not know how to protect her 14- and 10-year-old granddaughters from the ‘liberators’. ‘We give them sausages, and they break into houses, rape children and shoot in the legs,’ the woman cries. ‘What should I do? They walk around the village, ask where the young girls are and offer diesel for them…’
The relative advises: ‘If there is an opportunity - go somewhere. To the rear, somewhere to the city.^

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@Ijsbear

^Anton Shekhovtsov
@A_SHEKH0VTS0V
·
Apr 15
Ukrainian intelligence reports that 13 mobile crematoriums are in operation in the Russia-occupied parts of Mariupol. The Russians started exhuming dead bodies and preventing Ukrainians from burying the recently killed - Russia wants to destroy evidence of genocide of Ukrainians.^

Does anyone know what they are doing with their own dead soldiers? Zelensky said at one point they were just leaving them. They surely have to let their families know. They can’t just pretend they disappeared.[/quote]
I wager there are some nimble satellites overhead, the sort that can read Coca-Cola on the side of a tin or a number plate. Let's hope it is not too cloudy in the weeks ahead.

www.windy.com/-Clouds-clouds?clouds,2022042306,47.114,37.601,10

@RedToothBrush

Two different sources about unclaimed dead russians

Oleksiy Arestovych, adviser to the head of Ukraine's presidential administration, said they tried to return the bodies of 3,000 troops early on in the war but Russia refused, saying it did not believe their casualties were so high.

He told the Washington Post: 'They said, "We don't believe in such quantities. We don't have this number. We're not ready to accept them.".

That is interesting. I wonder if they will lie to the families. Just say the soldiers must have gone awol or are captured. Maybe they don’t want the families to know about the deaths of their loved ones in case they rebel. Maybe too they don’t intend to pay compensation for them as promised either.

I see Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon have also been banned from Russia, along with some fairly important government officials and some also rans. Seems a bit random.

TargusEasting

Re: satellite images. Are they so good in clear weather that it would be possible to see bodies being put into the mobile crematoriums?

@ScrollingLeaves

When there's an info lockdown you can just say to each individual family that you're terribly sorry, almost no one has died and you got really unlucky, your son was one of them, we're so sorry. You have have that conversation 20,000 times.

I suspect that some of the families in the East of Russia don't have much access to independent media, if the stories are true that the soldiers simply can't believe that almost everyone has a house and a laptop and washing machine and TV

@borntobequiet

I see Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon have also been banned from Russia, along with some fairly important government officials and some also rans. Seems a bit random.

Excuse me if I sound naive but a nuclear bomb coming to the UK can't be imminent if they're planning ahead and banning officials from this county, can it? Surely if they were planning nukes etc they wouldn't be worrying about petty bans. I'm clinging on to this as comfort

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@RedToothBrush

Two different sources about unclaimed dead russians

Oleksiy Arestovych, adviser to the head of Ukraine's presidential administration, said they tried to return the bodies of 3,000 troops early on in the war but Russia refused, saying it did not believe their casualties were so high.

He told the Washington Post: 'They said, "We don't believe in such quantities. We don't have this number. We're not ready to accept them.".

That is interesting. I wonder if they will lie to the families. Just say the soldiers must have gone awol or are captured. Maybe they don’t want the families to know about the deaths of their loved ones in case they rebel. Maybe too they don’t intend to pay compensation for them as promised either.[/quote]
Russia has a history of trying to deny that soliders have died.

There was a Russian mothers organisation which forced the government to admit the truth about their dead sons in Chechnya.

And then there is the story about the Kursk

Carl Schreck @carlschreck
Reminder: per journalist Sergei Dorenko (RIP), Putin thought the Kursk widows were prostitutes who'd been hired to smear him in TV interviews.

One of the things about crew on a ship is the widows are more likely to know each other than conscripted soliders.

And yes Russia have in the past tried to deny payouts for deaths of soliders. Its a known issue with Wagner too.

Dead soldiers are a liability to a government on the brink of financial default...

@borntobequiet

I see Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon have also been banned from Russia, along with some fairly important government officials and some also rans. Seems a bit random.

If anyone is feeling a bit left out then these are the people to ask:

Dear genocidal Russians, please ban me too

rusemb.org.uk/contact/

I'm not expecting a reply.

Russian troops in Mariupol to ban all movement in the city in preparation for “filtration” and mobilisation operation

Russian occupying troops in Mariupol are preparing to close all entries and exits to Mariupol and ban all movement in the city on 18 April in order to carry out a "filtration" operation among the city’s male population, some of whom will be mobilised.

Please, no.

a nuclear bomb coming to the UK can't be imminent

It really isn't.

1. it's a hint at the moment. Ignoring it won't make it go away, facing it is the most effective thing to do but at this stage it's just the monster under the bed.

2. -if- it ever got to that stage, it would be much much more likely to be Kyiv.

3. The moment there is any real danger of it, the entire bloody world would stand up including China. At this moment Ukraine is a hot spot and the consequences of the invasion are going to be long term but it is not going to re-write the boundary lines of nations.

4. again - it's unwise to pretend there is 100% safety, but (arse-about-backwards) the best way to handle it is not to pretend that it's not there and not to quaver and quail before it.

It's gamesmanship.

*If anyone is feeling a bit left out then these are the people to ask:

Dear genocidal Russians, please ban me too

rusemb.org.uk/contact/

I'm not expecting a reply.*

Are we sure that they are not only banning those they have paid for?
Is Farage banned?

@Ijsbear

a nuclear bomb coming to the UK can't be imminent

It really isn't.

1. it's a hint at the moment. Ignoring it won't make it go away, facing it is the most effective thing to do but at this stage it's just the monster under the bed.

2. -if- it ever got to that stage, it would be much much more likely to be Kyiv.

3. The moment there is any real danger of it, the entire bloody world would stand up including China. At this moment Ukraine is a hot spot and the consequences of the invasion are going to be long term but it is not going to re-write the boundary lines of nations.

4. again - it's unwise to pretend there is 100% safety, but (arse-about-backwards) the best way to handle it is not to pretend that it's not there and not to quaver and quail before it.

It's gamesmanship.

Thanks for this, I have trouble rationalising things sometimes. It's all just so bloody horrid, sickening in fact

RedToothBrush: Russia has a history of trying to deny that soliders have died.

There was a Russian mothers organisation which forced the government to admit the truth about their dead sons in Chechnya.

And then there is the story about the Kursk

Carl Schreck @carlschreck**
Reminder: per journalist Sergei Dorenko (RIP), Putin thought the Kursk widows were prostitutes who'd been hired to smear him in TV interviews.

One of the things about crew on a ship is the widows are more likely to know each other than conscripted soliders.

And yes Russia have in the past tried to deny payouts for deaths of soliders. Its a known issue with Wagner too.

Dead soldiers are a liability to a government on the brink of financial default...

I would expect nothing less from that Russian toe rag.

@ScrollingLeaves

TargusEasting Re: satellite images. Are they so good in clear weather that it would be possible to see bodies being put into the mobile crematoriums?

To be fair, many satellites have been developed to see through clouds and even rooves. If the US and others have the right satellites overhead they can take very detailed images. I saw some images from another 'zone' that allowed accurate differentiation between hand-held irrigation pipes and bazookas. Important if you want to target terrorists not farmers. In short, they would be able to evidence cremations unless carried out in a bunker.

....or under yoga mats

Thanks for this, I have trouble rationalising things sometimes. It's all just so bloody horrid, sickening in fact

It is. It's horrible, and heartbreaking and Putin has set the entire bloody world back by 60 years because of the knock on effects, and not only that but so many people are dead.

I can't help thinking that if we don't fight for Ukraine, it will end up as broken and devastated and sad as Chechyna and the ancient proud city of Aleppo.