Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

[HappyWinter]

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

Musing about what might happen next no easy answers or happy endings

In place of the "Cold War", I can envisage a new "Z-War": a "hot" war simmering along the borders of NATO, never quite hitting the threshold for NATO involvement but continuing the misery and death for thousands of innocent civilians on whose sovereign soil the proxy war rages ....for years and years

A very pessimistic place mark

Can we please be a bit mindful of posting links to photos of dead children?

I realise the caption was "this is heartbreaking" but that doesn't really cover it.

I completely agree @toastfiend

I recognise that just seeing a photo of a dead child is as nothing to actually living that hell, but it's unnecessary and borderline ghoulish. We can understand the horror without needing a photo of it. God forbid it were ever to happen, but I'd hate for a photo of my DS' body to be shared around on social media like that for people safely in the West to pass around social media to demonstrate how horrifying they think it all is. Is nothing off limits?

Checking in. Been listening to the UN meeting on YouTube and can't believe the Russian delegate. Everyone else talking about gender based violence and the plight of the children - and he makes
all about poor Russia

So have Russia dropped a chemical weapon? Will that be the red line?

Russia have possibly done a sarin attack. It is going to be bloody difficult to verify. Honestly I think a tactical nuke would be required.

Thanks for the New thread and right on a critical point re possible chemical attacks.

ESMA yy...I keep thinking, can the Russian attack be this stupid really.

As an aside with the mention of medicine what on earth is happening with COVID in Ukraine!

I thought potentially sarin Pastor. We've already crossed 100 red lines so maybe this is 101 and we will wait for 102, maybe 103 then it'll be too late.

Chemical would be Putrids go-to if his army is shit and suffering heavy losses.

My thoughts again. NFZ across the west for humanitarian purposes, free up Ukraine troops to concentrate on the east, armed to the teeth. Humanitarian troops forming a hard, fully weaponised line behind, for defensive purposes, of course.

Naval presence in range of the Black Sea.

Or am I completely naive? I mean....we did with Iraq?

Tiddy it's what I keep banging on about, getting peace keeping in to hold the lines and free up Ukraine army.
They aren't there too attack Putin.

JUST IN: Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby: “We are aware of social media reports which claim Russian forces deployed a potential chemical munition in Mariupol, Ukraine. We cannot confirm at this time and will continue to monitor the situation closely.

It's so frustrating Paper!

My thoughts again. NFZ across the west for humanitarian purposes, free up Ukraine troops to concentrate on the east, armed to the teeth. Humanitarian troops forming a hard, fully weaponised line behind, for defensive urposes, of course.

Naval presence in range of the Black Sea.

Or am I completely naive? I mean....we did with Iraq?

Tiddly, I read that NATO is supposed to be building up its troops on the NATO borders with Ukraine. Do we know this for sure or just pie in the sky or figment of my imagination? Perhaps the build up is not just defensive. Obviously, if it is offensive (to the extent needed for peace keeping/humanitarian support), NATO could not say that. Just like Russia swore blind it was just military exercises right to the point of invasion on 24 Feb.

I am clutching at straws.

Liz Truss released a similar statement

Reports that Russian forces may have used chemical agents in an attack on the people of Mariupol. We are working urgently with partners to verify details.

Any use of such weapons would be a callous escalation in this conflict and we will hold Putin and his regime to account.

So liz truss releasing late night statement as well?

They've bloody done it, haven't they. If we don't respond very robustly and quickly.

I'm clutching at that straw too blue

White phosphorus? 😔

Thanks for the new thread and all contributors.

@eglantine7

White phosphorus? 😔

Wouldn't cause ataxia, which is a symptom they're reporting.

Just to add - white phosphorous does have legitimate military uses. It's not like Sarin/Novichok/Chlorine etc. I appreciate the media's reporting on it was misleading previously, though.

Thanks for new thread

I'm not a frequent poster but I've been following these threads since they began and just want to thank all who contribute and keep them going. While I have no insight or analysis of my own to share (I am way out of my depth in that respect), I feel a duty to be aware. I'm grateful to those who share here, I could never reach this understanding by myself. My friends, who normally discuss everything, simply can't bring themselves to discuss Ukraine and conversations that stray in that direction get deflected quickly. I do understand that their reasons are for their own emotional wellbeing though. So for me this thread is especially important for its acknowledgement of the scale of suffering of the Ukrainian people, and for expressing the revulsion so rightly felt about it.

Thanks for the new thread. Seriously hoping this red line will prompt some serious action. I’ve just seen a horrendous video of Mariupol on Twitter.

@DuncinToffee

Liz Truss released a similar statement

Reports that Russian forces may have used chemical agents in an attack on the people of Mariupol. We are working urgently with partners to verify details.

Any use of such weapons would be a callous escalation in this conflict and we will hold Putin and his regime to account.

Worrying.

If the U.K. and USA are investigating then they think it's a likely possibility.

Remember whose now in charge of Russian forces - Dvornikov aka "The Butcher" who allegedly used chemical weapons in Syria.

At this juncture I'd like to see the UN deploy peace keeping troops in Kyiv and surrounding territory now the Russians have said it's not their objective (so why complain?) that free Ukrainian forces to fight in the east - plus many more weapons.

That would hopefully halt any Russian aggression on the capital without it being NATO boots on the ground.

I feel the next few weeks are pivotal. We either equip Ukraine to win this war now or settle for an horrific war of attrition where the humanitarian and economic toll will be appalling.

Checking in as have found these threads and posters most informative - thank you.

I'm aghast at the reports coming in tonight, which if confirmed, will be nightmare upon nightmare