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Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Alexandra2001 · 20/03/2022 19:24

As a PP has pointed out, Russia can and will have to be contained. But Ukraine will continue to live in the shadow of an existential threat

Russia wont be, we do not have the will to do that.
Ukraine is finished, Russia will keep going until there is nothing left and Ukraine will vanish of the face of the earth.

Zelenskyy is spot on, the Russian tactic is to kill & remove anyone left and destroy the country.

He isn't interested in peace or talks other than for PR.

The worlds mightiest military alliance has proven to be utterly useless, a paper tiger & Putin, Xi etc etc will realise they can do as they wish.

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:28

I am not so sure of Putins motives - ie believing his own truth I am not convinced he has a truth - that he really thinks he is liberating anyone.
Maybe its what he believes or maybe that is what he pedals but for him its a last go at being powerful and in demand.

if for instance it came out in years to come that Putins young gymnast was rumoured to be having an affair and cheating on him - going into UKriane was him lashing out I wouldnt be surprised.

Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 19:29

@RedToothBrush

It's from Turkey's Foreign Minister.

www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/20/turkey-says-russia-ukraine-close-to-agreement

He's reasonably well informed. Perhaps even better than twitter? That's not to say that anything is certain, but it's certainly cause for optimism.

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:31

Andrew Marr -( not that he is awared any meritis for judges on intellect has recently said Putin was one of the most intellegent guest he has ever had.

Tuba437 · 20/03/2022 19:32

@RedToothBrush

I think this definitely pours cold water all over the 'progress on negotiations' and overally optimistic narrative that seems to have randomly appeared from someones fantasy land.

Natasha Bertrand @NatashaBertrand
Details on the secretive Russia-Ukraine negotiations remain scant as many NATO countries, including the US, remain on the outside looking in. One European defense official called the talks "a bit of a dark avenue right now” for the west.

The Biden administration still sees no indication that Putin is willing or ready to deescalate the conflict -- making it difficult for US officials to be optimistic about the current state of negotiations, one source familiar with the situation said.

Jeffrey Evan Gold @jeffgoldesq
Zelensky to @FareedZakaria, today, there is no settlement unless 1. Ukraine has security guarantees from NATO or from individual nations and 2. Russians leave Ukraine including occupied territory of Ukraine.

edition.cnn.com/2022/03/20/politics/russia-ukraine-negotiations-us-nato/index.html
US and NATO officials struggle to decipher status of negotiations between Russia and Ukraine

US and NATO officials believe Russian President Vladimir Putin has not backed off his original demands in talks with Ukraine, and there is a heavy dose of skepticism in Western capitals about how credible Moscow's engagement truly is -- even as the status of those negotiations remains difficult to decipher, according to multiple sources briefed on the situation.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has recently indicated he is willing to consider some concessions to Russia to help bring an end to the violence, including a neutrality policy -- albeit one underpinned by robust security guarantees, raising more questions about the current state of talks and specific elements of any peace deal that may be under consideration.

"I'm ready for negotiations with (Putin). I was ready for the last two years. And I think that without negotiations, we cannot end this war," Zelensky told CNN's Fareed Zakaria in an exclusive interview Sunday. But he warned that any failure of negotiation attempts fail could lead to "a third World War."

I wouldn't say it throws cold water on the negotiations. Purely states what we already knew. Both parties will of course tell the public and media that there is no movement on certain points to try and get the other other make concessions. I don't think anyone truly knows what the other would be considered to be acceptable concessions.
Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 19:34

At this point the Russian attacks on the West appear to be in trouble.

Do the military folk on this thread have an idea if there is a realistic chance of forcing them to retreat?

OP posts:
Alexandra2001 · 20/03/2022 19:37

Why would Putin want peace now? he has no where near finished & has gained relatively little.

imho he is playing us all, as he did pre invasion.

Tuba437 · 20/03/2022 19:40

@Alexandra2001

As a PP has pointed out, Russia can and will have to be contained. But Ukraine will continue to live in the shadow of an existential threat

Russia wont be, we do not have the will to do that.
Ukraine is finished, Russia will keep going until there is nothing left and Ukraine will vanish of the face of the earth.

Zelenskyy is spot on, the Russian tactic is to kill & remove anyone left and destroy the country.

He isn't interested in peace or talks other than for PR.

The worlds mightiest military alliance has proven to be utterly useless, a paper tiger & Putin, Xi etc etc will realise they can do as they wish.

See I just can't see it. Surely right now he would be firing all his rockets etc at Kyiv and the presidential Palace with his hypersonic missiles if he wanted the whole country gone. He has nothing to gain by wiping the country off the face of the earth and would be hard to explain to Russians why he killed millions. Considering there is already protests against the war.
ParsleySageRosemary · 20/03/2022 19:40

So you have no faith in reported progress in peace talks Alexandra?

So many people have already left: UN says 10 million displaced. Some Ukrainian people will at least survive. We're back to considering the separate fates of Ukraine as a territory, and its people. What would Putin want with a depopulated and destroyed territory? Mariupol is for terror, but all of it?

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:43

Great news as far as it can be positive on Chernobyl.

Has anyone heard of any cyber warfare coming at us? remember early on there were great fears of our banks and infrastructure being targeted.
I'd be interested to know if that happened and we repelled them or they haven't tried.

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 19:44

Ljsbear i was just about to post the following and then saw your question

Michael Kofman @kofmanmichael
Thoughts on the current state of the war and where things might be heading. About 2 weeks ago I suggested that Russian forces have ~3 weeks before combat effectiveness becomes increasingly exhausted. I think that's generally been right, but we're not quite there yet.

The war has broken down into what could imperfectly be called three fronts, and Russian advances have stalled out along two of them. Around Kyiv RU forces are trying to consolidate positions, but I don't think they can make an assault on the city. Kyiv is far from encircled. 2/

In the southwest there was a fitful advance around Mykolaiv towards Odesa that had little chance of success given the paucity of forces employed. This has been set back by a UKR counter offensive. I expect little progress there for either side and more of a shifting front. 3/

This means we're not going to see an amphibious landing at Odesa, or a Russian march to Transnistria, anytime soon (if ever). At least not in this phase of the war. However, Russian advances towards Kryvyi Rih do threaten UKR lines of communications west of the river. 4/

The area to watch in the coming week is the Russian attempt to encircle UKR forces in the JFO. A slowly progressing pincer movement from the north and south (using Nathan Ruser's map). This is where UKR forces could be in a precarious position. 5/

Since inception the Russian military effort has lacked focus. Too few forces, on too many axes of advance, some competing with each other. I think in the next two weeks they are likely to concentrate on UKR forces in the east and the battle for Mariupol. 6/

I suspect unrealistic political aims & timetables have driven an unsound mil strategy. Kyiv, Odesa, Donbas, etc. There's a desperation to show progress. Increasingly it looks as though the Russian mil is focusing on the Donbas, and maintaining along other fronts. 7/

Depreciating combat effectiveness sets the stage for either a significant operational pause along most fronts or a ceasefire. This does not necessarily imply a political settlement, but a period to reorganize, consolidate, and resupply. An end to the first chapter of this war. 8/

I think Moscow is searching for something it can use to declare a victory. Taking the Donbas, and having leverage to attain concessions from Kyiv is probably what they're looking to accomplish at this point. This is at best a guess. 9/

Much depends on what Putin knows and thinks about the course of the war, and whether he feels pressured at home. Our impression of the war & reality on the ground might be quite different from his. Its not clear he understands what the prospects for Russian success are. 10/

Naturally there is uncertainty about the state of Russian armed forces along different parts of the battlefield, its bound to be uneven, and we know even less about the state of Ukrainian forces. 11/

The next chapter in this war could prove even uglier as it will likely turn into a war of attrition, with greater bombardment of civilian areas. Here I am more concerned about the future evolution of this conflict, despite the remarkably poor Russian performance thus far. 12/

Generally, I don't see how any military success can add up to something that constitutes a political victory for Moscow. If there is another phase, Russian forces will probably try to compensate for poor performance by inflicting greater destruction. 13/

Worth noting, the Russian military is interpreting 'demilitarization' quite literally as a secondary goal in this conflict, going after Ukraine's defense industry and key military infrastructure. It seems they want to substantially degrade Ukraine's military potential. 14/

Has the war entered a stalemate? Yes and no. Russian forces may make slow, incremental advances in the Donbas. I suspect UKR military can hold on most fronts and perhaps even counter attack on others. However, attrition is undoubtedly taking its toll on both sides. 15/

In general I've tried to be cautious in rendering predictions because I think we don't know if this point in the conflict is near the beginning, the middle, or the end of the war. Few things are as contingent and indeterminate. End.

borntobequiet · 20/03/2022 19:47

I do find it strange that Trump is still demonised on these threads

Really?

Alexandra2001 · 20/03/2022 19:50

@ParsleySageRosemary

So you have no faith in reported progress in peace talks Alexandra?

So many people have already left: UN says 10 million displaced. Some Ukrainian people will at least survive. We're back to considering the separate fates of Ukraine as a territory, and its people. What would Putin want with a depopulated and destroyed territory? Mariupol is for terror, but all of it?

Why not? did it stop what Stalin did to the Ukrainians? or what Hitler did to the Jews?

We are not dealing with a reasonable person, he doesn't care, he will eventually get around to all these other places, Mariupol isn't the only city he is flattening right now but he has only so many missiles and soldiers to fire them but he'll make more.

Look at what he did in Chechnya/Grozny or Syria? to see what lies in store for Ukraine.

Russia is a big place, he will ship ukrainians far and wide and bring in Russians, after all, we now we wont stop him.

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 19:50

Question.

If Russia had the capability to blast Kiev into the StoneAge at this moment, why haven't they?

Kharkiv looks bad, but even they were suggesting a let off in the number of bombings / missiles yesterday.

The Ukrainians have been hinting the Russians are running low on these so have started to use more sparingly.

I do note tweet 8 in the above thread about a possible brief full scale ceasefire rather than political settlement.

Now THAT viability could be more on the cards rather than a peace agreement. And that could also be where optimism over talks is coming from.

Interesting to see it framed in the terms of a less permanent arrangement.

TiddyTidTwo · 20/03/2022 19:52

Putin will not relent. It's not in his psychology.

Zelenksyy may relent a bit but only so much, and why the bloody hell should he looking at what's happened to his country so far.

NATO, in my opinion, will have to intervene. To be utterly frank I'd wish they'd just shit or get off the pot. I'm an sick to my stomach at being a bystander of genocide.

Yes I am British ex forces and might be seen as hawkish but I remember my training for the bullshit WMD when 9/11 occurred. Rules of NATO are not bigger or better than what's morally right .

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:53

How long I wonder can the USA sustain sending these billion Dollar packages to Ukraine? If this drags on, collectively can we all sustain it, after COVID crushed economies ?
How fast can we build and make military weapons?
I'm sure we can outlast Putin but at what cost?
I'e are we Also being weakened?

@Alexandra2001 I've found it hard to see where you sit on these threads.

What's your Idea of what should happen?

Alwayscheerful · 20/03/2022 19:54

@RedToothBrush

Question.

If Russia had the capability to blast Kiev into the StoneAge at this moment, why haven't they?

Kharkiv looks bad, but even they were suggesting a let off in the number of bombings / missiles yesterday.

The Ukrainians have been hinting the Russians are running low on these so have started to use more sparingly.

I do note tweet 8 in the above thread about a possible brief full scale ceasefire rather than political settlement.

Now THAT viability could be more on the cards rather than a peace agreement. And that could also be where optimism over talks is coming from.

Interesting to see it framed in the terms of a less permanent arrangement.

Maybe he is saving historic Kyiv for the victory speech. Will the world really allow this to happen?
EezyOozy · 20/03/2022 19:54

Thanks

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 19:55

Phil Stewart @phildstewart (Reuters)
BREAKING - Russia's defense ministry: Ukraine has until early hours of March 21 to give Russia its answer on surrendering Mariupol - RIA

Thats less that 2hrs.

Ukrainians wouldn't have much time to tell their soliders even if they agree to it.

Looks like a set up to say Ukraine refused to surrender / broke the surrender to justify whatever happens next.

The implicit threat of what happens if they don't surrender in an impossible time frame is worrying.

MarshaBradyo · 20/03/2022 19:56

@PaperTyger

How long I wonder can the USA sustain sending these billion Dollar packages to Ukraine? If this drags on, collectively can we all sustain it, after COVID crushed economies ? How fast can we build and make military weapons? I'm sure we can outlast Putin but at what cost? I'e are we Also being weakened?

@Alexandra2001 I've found it hard to see where you sit on these threads.

What's your Idea of what should happen?

Add in rising interest rates and all that Covid spending will hit harder.
notimagain · 20/03/2022 19:56

@Ijsbear

At this point the Russian attacks on the West appear to be in trouble.

Do the military folk on this thread have an idea if there is a realistic chance of forcing them to retreat?

Very Ex-mil POV..

Short answer- No idea.

Long answer - Due to “the fog of war” and the info wars both sides are indulging in it’s really to hard to work out the reality on the ground.

The Ukrainians appear to be fighting a very very effective defensive campaign using the assets they have (mobility, modern weapons, and no doubt a few hints when it comes to intelligence) ..I think it would be a whole different ballgame for them to take the offensive and force a large scale retreat but who knows?

On the other side of this I think Putin would be in some ways quite “happy” Hmm, at least for the next few weeks, to just keep feeding more of his troops into the grinder in the hope of wearing the Ukrainians down.

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 19:57

Interesting on Twitter tonight, just had a quick look. I try to avoid it for my mental health. But noticing a change in opinion for Zelensky, especially after the WW3 comment.

I’m not saying I agree btw, but I just found ur interesting that most of the comments I’ve read are negative ones.

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:58

Tiddy, it's the most bizarre situation isn't it!

Everyone I've heard commentate on Putin v NATO, says it's no contest, NATO wins.
But then Putin could unleash nuclear forces.

We don't exactly know what China would do.

I would have thought the work around maybe other countries going in as individuals and not under the NATO banner?

Btw loads of private security companies are in there too extract people to safety.

PaperTyger · 20/03/2022 19:58

But yes, where are the morals here?

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 19:59

Russia: Ukraine has hours to give its answer on surrendering Mariupol

Moscow's defence ministry also said that Russia would offer humanitarian corridors out of Mariupol to both the east and west

Telegraph

Boris Johnson spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to ask what his military require in their battle against Russia's invasion.

A Downing Street spokesman said the Prime Minister "set out his intention

Also Telegraph.
(btw that looks like a fairly broad promise from the PM... As in has room for long term arrangement to be implied from that)