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Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
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15
Bluebellsunderthetrees · 22/03/2022 21:58

FFS after ! I shouldn't type so fast

Ijsbear · 22/03/2022 21:59

Absolutely agree that if he gets away with Ukraine he will take other Baltic states.

I personally don't have the information or training to assess if he will use nuclear stuff but if he does, I don't think he would go out for full world-ending war unless he saw all of Russia disintegrating around him because they were being invaded. If, if he uses them it would be battlefield or dropping one on Kyiv out of vindictiveness. He seems to be a vindictive man. It would likely be the end of his power though because I think his own army staff would be more than a little upset and China woudl be too.

I -don't- have the training but since you asked ... I think push him back to the borders and leave it there. Accept a peace then.

But I'd also be investing massively in a cyber-security programme and putting some intelligent investment into other countries such as building roads, facilities, encouraging and financially supporting moves to cleaner energy and improving the environment. I'd be fighting a media fight to oppose the Russian influence in Asia, Africa, South America.

There are a million problems not least to do with corruption - the amount of money invested in Afghanistan for non-existent soldiers! and the desperate inequality in oil-rich Nigera! so many problems.

But I think we need to think both short term in terms of a free Ukraine, Putin left in power but boxed in, and then also in the long term.

OP posts:
notimagain · 22/03/2022 22:01

@PaperTyger

I was surprised to see the times starteakers article posted up thread. O would have hoped they would already be there getting trained up. It was mentioned age's ago. How long it takes to get things out there then train people up!
The timescale in that article really shouldn't come as a surprise...

At the risk of repeating myself (but I will) as I mentioned a day or two back many modern weapons systems aren't as "point and shoot"/automated/"click and collect" Confused as some people seem to think and the MSM generally like to portray.

There's little point in handing kit over to newbie operators with a few post it notes and telling them get on with it if the operator struggles to get the projectile off the rails/out of the tube pointing in roughly the right direction, or if he/she does then discovers they've engaged a friendly.....

A couple of other asides:

Firstly, Falklands - yes eventually the UK got direct help from the US and I can attest at least some assistance continued for at least a few months after that conflict finished.

Secondly without wishing to cause offense to any with current connections to HM Forces I'm a bit uncomfortable with some of the almost unconditional tub thumping that's gone on with regard to the Afghan campaign...I'm not for one minute criticising individuals on the ground but have we forgotten Helmand already?

rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/twelve-dilemmas-behind-uks-afghan-defeat

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 22:02

@TiddyTidTwo Children in Afghanistan who grew up with a hope for their futures born. The boy that fell from the plan because he didn't want to live under the Taliban. I totally understand your feelings on it.

I am so angry. Yes British troops fought but we also stayed and tried to turn it around. When Biden pulled out like he did and basically left everyone to it I thought you heartless bastard. You stay for as long as it takes. Afghanistan had a long way to go but it was looking hopeful, especially for women there. Now it's all undone. Fucking heartbreaking

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 22/03/2022 22:08

[quote TiddyTidTwo]@TiddyTidTwo Children in Afghanistan who grew up with a hope for their futures born. The boy that fell from the plan because he didn't want to live under the Taliban. I totally understand your feelings on it.

I am so angry. Yes British troops fought but we also stayed and tried to turn it around. When Biden pulled out like he did and basically left everyone to it I thought you heartless bastard. You stay for as long as it takes. Afghanistan had a long way to go but it was looking hopeful, especially for women there. Now it's all undone. Fucking heartbreaking [/quote]
Totally agree

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 22:11

Bluebell I don't want to see it in Ukraine either. Ukraine has its faults, so does the UK. We cannot let that country fall to Putin. We can't 😒

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 22/03/2022 22:17

@TiddyTidTwo sorry. It's heart and gut wrenching.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 22/03/2022 22:25

@TiddyTidTwo I don't want anyone to live under the gun or in a war zone . But I don't trust any of the "leaders" anymore not one bit. I hate the lot of them

PerkingFaintly · 22/03/2022 22:33

Oh that article is interesting in its mention of Admiral Fyodor Ushakov of sainted memory.

topsecretumbra.substack.com/p/putin-admits-his-attack-on-ukraine?s=w

Irrelevant and fun fact: the C18th Imperial Russian Navy in which Ushakov served had a significant cadre of Scottish officers, sent by the UK at Catherine the Great's request to help build the Russian navy.

They included Admiral Samuel Greig, whose son Captain Samuil Samuilovich Greig became Russian consul in London and married one Mary Fairfax. Fairfax is better known under her second married name, Mary Somerville; she was the Scottish scientist and polymath after whom Somerville College, Oxford, was named.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Greig

Erm, as you were.

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 22:48

Ljsbear
I'm not sure anyone on the planet has that training!

Re Afghanistan, I'd caveat that; the way the withdrawal occured because they were always going to. It Just didn't have to look like that. And remember at that time people close to biden said he's running autocracy, won't listen to people.
Unfortunately it was Said what happened definitely weakened the west..
Hopefully however biden at least learned his lesson from mistakes there.

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 22:49

Bluebell. I don't trust the leaders either. They've all got their fingers sticky in the honey jar.

Boris is another one but I do trust him on Ukraine. He's a Thatcherite and a Churchillian (both had faults before you flame me) but never, ever let a dictator dictate. I am really proud the UK are supplying weapons and medical supplies. I suspect we are doing far more behind the scenes too.

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 22:52

Not me when it' was Said they are getting them I thought they would Just be sent immediately? Flown into Poland or wherever and get training.
But it sounds like nothing has been sent yet

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 22:57

My thoughts. NATO troops are gathering on the borders. Only on the borders, mind. Those troops are highly trained and tactically superior to Russian antiquated machinery and cannon fodder Putin has sent in.

He didn't think this would happen.

It's a lighting the blue touch paper time. If he does, he won't win. However, we need to move. Years of war crimes and genocide is unacceptable

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:00

Boris Johnson is a weird one.
Can you blackmail him, probably not, he's done everything and it is known by many.
Can you bribe him, yes but he may well change his mind at any moment and keep the money.
On the whole he would probably try to avoid being a total traitor. It would damage his future money flow.

DrBlackbird · 22/03/2022 23:05

But I'd also be investing massively in a cyber-security programme and putting some intelligent investment into other countries such as building roads, facilities, encouraging and financially supporting moves to cleaner energy and improving the environment. I'd be fighting a media fight to oppose the Russian influence in Asia, Africa, South America

Completely agree. I’d add that the West should be investing more in Africa, not just media. The uk has done some amazing humanitarian aid work, but overall the west has almost completely ignored Africa in terms of investment (it’s seen as being of little strategic importance), but not Russia and certainly not China who years ago saw the strategic importance of Africa’s commodities. Particularly the key minerals necessary for technology.

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 23:12

"Boris Johnson is a weird one.
Can you blackmail him, probably not, he's done everything and it is known by many.
Can you bribe him, yes but he may well change his mind at any moment and keep the money.
On the whole he would probably try to avoid being a total traitor. It would damage his future money flow"

Boris is a bit of a twat isn't he but coming to war, he's been pretty bloody good. We are the no.1 supporters to Ukraine over the US.all the other stuff pales into insignificance when we could all face WW3. Like I said before he's a Thatcherite and a churchillian. Day to day it's irrelevant but now we all need to face the truth we need a war leader. Someone who is not afraid to stand up and help. That IS where we are.

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 23:17

Igor has posted interesting wind change stuff re Poland.
Poland is now Putin's big threat because of its housing Ukrainians. Growing military And ££ , strong anti Putin feelings.
Said West needs concrete plan to counter act this not constant knees jerkin

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:18

Presumably Boris has just given Chief of the Defence Staff Admiral Sir Tony Radakin a free reign?
Delegation to someone more competent is a good tactic

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 23:19

Because of threat Putin may threaten Poland.

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 23:22

Russia;. A gas station masquerading as a country.

Putin, if they don't buy our oil we'll have to kill more children

PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 23:23
  • run by a Mafia masquerading
PaperTyger · 22/03/2022 23:27

D

Ukraine-invasion-part-15
WeAreTheHeroes · 22/03/2022 23:32

How can anyone trust Boris on anything? He's been cosying up to bent oligarchs for far too long. I hope he is ashamed of himself, but I doubt he feels shame over anything. He can at least make some amends by supporting Ukraine.

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 23:35

Aye Paper And Germany needs weaning off the boob.

I'm glad the UK is no longer part of the EU when it comes to this. We might be suffering with other stuff but we don't suffer like the Ukrainians and we can act independently. I think we already are

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