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Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
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15
MarshaBradyo · 20/03/2022 16:52

Thanks for new thread

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 16:58

@AgnesWestern

So if peace talks and negotiations aren’t the answer to end it, what is? Just carrying on?
You CAN NOT rationalise with someone who does not recognise the reality of the situation.

The idea that peace talks can be effective at this stage needs to recognise not the difference between what Putin wants and what Zelensky wants.

The bigger issue is the gap between what Putin thinks and reality. If he is negotiating from a position that doesn't exist then its never ever going to be reasonable enough for Zelensky to accept in any way.

I actually think this makes Macron's role perhaps more clear. Simply being within Putin's world in some regular level even if he's not going to persuade Putin of anything.

Its a situation where there isn't currently an alternative option. The economics are going to take a few weeks to start filtering through in full. And if Trent Telenko is right thats going to take a while to filter through too.

I think there is probably a feeling that in fact that there is only a gradual drip drip getting through to Putin.

That doesn't bode well for Ukraine. They can't afford the time. And yet I think thats the reality they face.

No shorter timeframe available bar someone deciding to bump off Putin (which is unlikely).

Equally, maybe this also means that the West can rely on only certain things being important to Putin. Thus we might have a situation where Putin has personally said 'tell me if they send the MiGs and I'll esculate' whereas sending all matter of other stuff is of concern to those lower down but doesn't 'trigger' the Big Guy's red lines.

The other thing that struck me from the BBC article was this section:

Mr Putin's initial military plan looked like something devised by a KGB officer, one Western intelligence official explains.

It had been created, they say, by a tight "conspiratorial cabal" with an emphasis on secrecy. But the result was chaos. Russian military commanders were not ready and some soldiers went over the border without knowing what they were doing.

Western spies, through sources they will not discuss, knew more about those plans than many inside Russia's leadership. But now they face a new challenge - understanding what Russia's leader will do next. And that is not easy.

Think about it. How did Western spies know what only those in Putin's closest circle know more than other senior Russians? There was some sort of information source that went beyond visuals.

That very much will fuck with Putin's head.

(Noting the Ukrainian headfuck tweet today too).

So there seems to be a growing census around the Bunkerman Theory, rather than the Madman Theory and thats interesting to see in its own right because there has to be a reason for this.

PestorPeston · 20/03/2022 16:59

There were arguments for keeping Saddaam Hussain in power, he insisted on education for women up to 18 and took no shit from the radical Muslims. At one point he was our darling for keeping the Iranians in check. But that is a completely different thread.

The filtration camps are not going to sterilise good Slavic bloodlines. Probably the easiest way out of them will be to marry a local. They can then be declared an astounding success.

If we don't stop Putin now? When do we stop him? He doesn't seem to want to stop himself.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 20/03/2022 17:01

The Independent reporting poll showing 93% of Ukrainians believe they will beat Russia. I am not sure that means they want to negotiate.

I was a bit surprised at this question - is it something I missed?

• The support for the creation of a military and political union of Ukraine, Poland and the United Kingdom increased from 61% in January to 85%. Today, the support for such an alliance is higher than the support for Ukraine's membership in NATO (72%).

Anyhow quite interesting ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/pyatyy_obschenacionalnyy_opros_ukraina_v_usloviyah_voyny_18_marta_2022.html

AlecTrevelyan006 · 20/03/2022 17:02

Seems that sanctions were on the shelf and ready to be implemented as required...

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-biden-business-europe-b20d71c150712fe2e6dc3d44af8d1268

‘Do the right thing’: How US, allies united to punish Putin.

Just days before Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, President Joe Biden quietly dispatched a team to European Union headquarters in Belgium.

These were not spy chiefs or generals, but experts in reading fine print and tracking the flow of money, computer chips and other goods around the world.

TheABC · 20/03/2022 17:03

The only people who can accurately assess the price of continuing war v appeasement are the Ukrainians as they are the ones paying the price. What we can do is continue to support them and make as much effort as possible to clip Russia's wings (supplies/cash/talent) to stop them being able to prosecute war upon us in the future. If it becomes unprofitable or simply not feasible (because you've burnt through your able-bodied men and have to wait for the next generation to grow up), then you are 'contained'. I can't see anyone advocating the invasion of Russia, as happened with Germany at the end of the second world war, unless Putin does start a direct conflict with NATO. At that point, all bets will be off.

shreddednips · 20/03/2022 17:04

[quote AgnesWestern]@shreddednips

I do get that, I really do.
But I don’t see how it will end. Putin won’t be seen to give up or lose. Zelensky and the Ukrainian people possibly won’t give up either. So will it just go on for years and eventually there will be nothing left of Ukraine? Just a destroyed country?[/quote]
It's a bloody awful situation. But to my mind, there are still quite a lot of cards in the air that could change the course of events and we don't know how they're going to fall yet.

Firstly, China. We have absolutely no idea what China is going to do. I know there's intelligence suggesting that China is mulling whether to support Russia, but as far as I know it hasn't yet. I still hold out some hope that China might hold off doing anything that would majorly boost Russia's ability to wage war.

Secondly, money. As RTB pointed out at the end of the last thread, Russia's economy is highly likely to crash in the near future. Russia has also lost military leaders and I expect it will lose more over the coming days. Putin might purge a few more. War is expensive, and at some point Putin's resources are going to run too low to be able to maintain this level of onslaught (I hope.)

There are some other more remote possibilities that could change matters too. I don't hold out much hope of a coup, but I would have said the chances of that gradually increase the worse things get in Russia. I also idly wonder about the possibility of a coup in Belarus and how that might change matters, but that is probably wishful thinking.

The thought of this grinding on with months more bloodshed for Ukraine is desperate, but if Ukraine decides it doesn't want to concede to completely unreasonable demands then all we can do is try and put them in as good a position to defend their country as we can.

MagicFox · 20/03/2022 17:05

@TheABC

The only people who can accurately assess the price of continuing war v appeasement are the Ukrainians as they are the ones paying the price. What we can do is continue to support them and make as much effort as possible to clip Russia's wings (supplies/cash/talent) to stop them being able to prosecute war upon us in the future. If it becomes unprofitable or simply not feasible (because you've burnt through your able-bodied men and have to wait for the next generation to grow up), then you are 'contained'. I can't see anyone advocating the invasion of Russia, as happened with Germany at the end of the second world war, unless Putin does start a direct conflict with NATO. At that point, all bets will be off.

I might be being ignorant but as a defence alliance wouldn't that be NATO troops fighting invading forces rather than invading themselves

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 17:09

@TheABC

The only people who can accurately assess the price of continuing war v appeasement are the Ukrainians as they are the ones paying the price. What we can do is continue to support them and make as much effort as possible to clip Russia's wings (supplies/cash/talent) to stop them being able to prosecute war upon us in the future. If it becomes unprofitable or simply not feasible (because you've burnt through your able-bodied men and have to wait for the next generation to grow up), then you are 'contained'. I can't see anyone advocating the invasion of Russia, as happened with Germany at the end of the second world war, unless Putin does start a direct conflict with NATO. At that point, all bets will be off.
Agreed.
OP posts:
Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 17:11

@PestorPeston

So how do you suggest stopping him beyond what we're doing by applying sanctions and supplying arms to Ukraine?

As a PP has pointed out, Russia can and will have to be contained. But Ukraine will continue to live in the shadow of an existential threat.

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 17:12

[quote Yeahthat]@Ijsbear

David Rothkopf @djrothkopf To those who have called for an "off-ramp" for Putin, I have just one question. Don't you feel ashamed of yourselves? When you look at what is happening in Mariupol, where citizens are being rounded up and kidnapped to Russia, put in camps and forcibly relocated?

It's easy to be all righteous and angry when you offer no proposed ideas for a solution. If he were to offer a suggestion, I'm assuming it would also involve significant bloodshed. The only thing he seems to be working on is the absolute certainty that we're omnipotent in being able to bring justice and peace. You could make the same argument for many disastrous interventions going back decades. "You want to leave Saddaam Hussein in power? Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Don't you care about his brutal repressesion of his own people, his genocide against the Kurds?".

He offers the suggestion that we help to defeat Putin, which is what we're doing by supplying weapons. I'm not sure how he envisages a total defeat of Russia which entirely neutralises them as a threat being achieved.

As for "just carrying on" - that will be decided by Ukraine and Russia. There will be some kind of negotiation at the end of the conflict, at some point they'll each decide not to carry on.

We know that the Ukranians are negotiating and that representatives of Turkey, who are most informed about what's going on, are optimistic.[/quote]
Bottomline.

Only one person makes the decision on the Russian side.

The negotiations might be 'going well'. Yet we also don't know how well the Russians are actually accurately representing Putin's personal position!

He wants his people to tell him they are making progress. The Ukrainians want progress for obvious reasons.

Yet we also still don't fully appreciate whether the Russian team are actually making progress or digging themselves into a hole of disapproval with Putin by over promising.

I would put it to you that what the negotiation teams are saying are not matching what Putin is saying. The negotiation team is better placed in reality than Putin. This is why I remain fundamentally skeptical of the 'progress of the negotiations' at this point.

If Bunkerman Theory is right, then they still need to somehow break much of the reality of the situation to Putin or he's going to take one look at what's said and go 'this does not match my ideological fantasyland'. He will be trying to negotiate at a position of greater strength than he really has.

In theory, this could mean either the war becomes length and of attrition for Ukraine.

And/Or it could also ultimately lead to a military rout of the Russians because Putin doesn't identify just how fucked he is. And much greater economic disaster than he realises. All this could destabilise Russia more than he realises because he's stuck in the bunker.

I certainly think the talk is much more optimistic than perhaps is reflective of the situation.

We shall see.

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 17:13

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]The Independent reporting poll showing 93% of Ukrainians believe they will beat Russia. I am not sure that means they want to negotiate.

I was a bit surprised at this question - is it something I missed?

• The support for the creation of a military and political union of Ukraine, Poland and the United Kingdom increased from 61% in January to 85%. Today, the support for such an alliance is higher than the support for Ukraine's membership in NATO (72%).

Anyhow quite interesting ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/pyatyy_obschenacionalnyy_opros_ukraina_v_usloviyah_voyny_18_marta_2022.html[/quote]
If you are Ukrainian you HAVE to believe this.

Otherwise you are lost into hopelessness.

They've decided to challenge corruption before too.

EsmaCannonball · 20/03/2022 17:14

Can't (or maybe I can) believe how Zelenskyy's comments have been taken out of context by some on here. Perhaps that nice Mr Putin could thwart his dastardly scheme to trigger World War 3 by stopping invading Ukraine.

DuncinToffee · 20/03/2022 17:16

Zelensky challenges Israel's neutrality over invasion

Yolande Knell
BBC Middle East correspondent, Jerusalem

Volodymyr Zelensky has pointedly questioned why some countries officially appear to be indifferent to Russia’s invasion of his country or sitting on the fence, in an address to members of the Israeli parliament.

Israel - which has ties to both countries - has taken a somewhat neutral position during the war.

In his virtual international tour, President Zelensky has proven skilful at adapting his message to different groups of lawmakers.

Speaking to Israel’s parliament on a Zoom video conference, he began by echoing the words of the former Israeli Prime Minister, Golda Meir, who was born in Kyiv: "We intend to live but our neighbours want to see us dead."

Zelensky - who is Jewish - also compared the actions and words of Russia to those of Nazi Germany in the Second World War. And then he asked why Israel was not sending ammunition and hadn’t posed sanctions on Moscow in line with many Western countries.

Israel’s prime minister has positioned himself as a mediator in the conflict but has also appeared reluctant to antagonise Russia, an important military player in the Middle East.

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 17:16

Are you sure that Putin is as insulated as all that Red?

He strikes me as a man who could well look at his laptop for himself and he arrested who was it, the Foreign Affairs chief of the FSB. He must know it's not going as planned.

OP posts:
AlecTrevelyan006 · 20/03/2022 17:22

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]The Independent reporting poll showing 93% of Ukrainians believe they will beat Russia. I am not sure that means they want to negotiate.

I was a bit surprised at this question - is it something I missed?

• The support for the creation of a military and political union of Ukraine, Poland and the United Kingdom increased from 61% in January to 85%. Today, the support for such an alliance is higher than the support for Ukraine's membership in NATO (72%).

Anyhow quite interesting ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/pyatyy_obschenacionalnyy_opros_ukraina_v_usloviyah_voyny_18_marta_2022.html[/quote]
maybe influenced by success of Operation Orbital

since 2015 UK has been training and supporting Ukraine troops focussing on strategic fighting - anti-armour, counter-sniping and mortar planning, identification of mines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs), infantry skills, medical care and logistics etc

DGRossetti · 20/03/2022 17:24

Of all the countries in the world that should know what it's like to have neighbours that don't believe you exist and are devoted to ensuring you don't, Israel would probably be at the top of my list.

Still while they are illegally occupying Palestine, maybe they're a little keen to play that down. Maybe they're giving Putin tips ?

DrBlackbird · 20/03/2022 17:25

[quote Yeahthat]@DrBlackbird

"We" haven't decided anything nor do you decide the range of acceptable debate.[/quote]
So re you saying that you’re happy to continue to see the ‘blame everyone except the person who started it’ posts?

PestorPeston · 20/03/2022 17:27

A military and political union of Ukraine, Poland and the United Kingdom

Feck knows where that one came from, I think we would need to add Turkey to make it work.

shreddednips · 20/03/2022 17:27

According to Sky News, Russian troops have now adopted defensive positions instead of just being stalled as the Ukrainians counter-attack.

shreddednips · 20/03/2022 17:28

@shreddednips

According to Sky News, Russian troops have now adopted defensive positions instead of just being stalled as the Ukrainians counter-attack.
Around Kyiv, that should say.
PestorPeston · 20/03/2022 17:29

Maybe the nice Mr Putin will be bobbing around in the bath tub one day and have the sudden realisation that he has become so selfish and corrupt that it is he who is the real traitor. I'm not holding my breath.

Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 17:30

@DrBlackbird

I've not seen that anywhere. Either way it wouldn't be up to me to decide, nor would I believe that someone will go through 15 threads to check what my preferences are and tailor their posts accordingly.

PestorPeston · 20/03/2022 17:31

@shreddednips

According to Sky News, Russian troops have now adopted defensive positions instead of just being stalled as the Ukrainians counter-attack.
There were a couple of huge blasts in Kyiv today. One at 6am ish and another at 2ish. They might be in for a busy night.
MagicFox · 20/03/2022 17:33

I'm worried that the issues with the RU army means they're going to move to WMDs as the only way to force surrender. What happens then? Are the options to stand by and just watch or to fulfil the image of the West as "sheriff of the world" that fits the RU narrative and justifies further escalation? It feels like there's no light at the end of the tunnel right now