Ukraine-invasion-part-15

[Ijsbear]

Next part.

@PaperTyger

How long I wonder can the USA sustain sending these billion Dollar packages to Ukraine? If this drags on, collectively can we all sustain it, after COVID crushed economies ? How fast can we build and make military weapons? I'm sure we can outlast Putin but at what cost? I'e are we Also being weakened?

@Alexandra2001 I've found it hard to see where you sit on these threads.

What's your Idea of what should happen?

The question is never about what you can afford provide, its about what you cant afford not to provide when it comes to military security.

There is always money for defence if the US sees what it perceives to be a real clear and present danger to its interests.

Agnes

I think we all look at this from different perspectives and then perspectives within that.

You are for instance clearly being triggered by the words, world war 3.

But if you were zelensky, what would you be doing or saying?

For him..he's already up to his neck in the most hideous vicious war against someone known to not care one jot about the Geneva convention?

As zelensky what would you be doing or saying?

*Boris Johnson spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to ask what his military require in their battle against Russia's invasion.

A Downing Street spokesman said the Prime Minister "set out his intention*

Good

Everyone I've heard commentate on Putin v NATO, says it's no contest, NATO wins
But then Putin could unleash nuclear forces

We do not have to defeat Russia, in fact that would be stupid.

But we can provide anti ship missiles, adv anti a/c... tell Syria not to fly in mercenaries or we shoot down, tell Belarus similar.

Push back at Putin without direct confrontation.

Putin doesn't want to die in a nuclear fire storm and neither does his command.

Black sea is international waters, are we afraid to exert our legal rights?

@borntobequiet

Again, did you actually read what I wrote? Taking away the media rhetoric and going off policies - Trump's policies: attempting to force increased defence spending by NATO countries; tried to stop Nordstream 2 and did sanction companies which worked on it; (unverifiable) but claimed to have threatened military retaliation against Russia if it invaded Ukraine - can be contrasted with Merkel and Obama. Merkel made Germany energy dependent on Russia (after the annexation of Crimea), Obama publicly stated in 2016 that the US would never defend Ukraine militarily, that it wasn't a red line or core interest, and that Russia would always have escalatory power there. Neither applied meaningful sanctions and both quickly rehabilitated him following Crimea. Obama after being caught on a mic telling Medvedev that "I can be more flexible after the election", made Putin the power broker in Syria.

Madeleine Albright has already admitted that they got it badly wrong. Gerhard Schroder is being very critically reappraised. So yes I do find it strange that someone who took concrete steps in terms of policies to oppose Russia is criticised heavily, whilst there is silence on others who's policies empowered Putin's regime.

The answer given earlier was that Merkel and Obama are "kinda cool".

@Alexandra2001

Agree with this, with the exception of Belarus and shooting down aircraft.

I'm not sure it matters how clever Putin is or isn't. I think when you reach a certain level of power, and you always get what you want, you can dispense with the brain. Unbridled power turns adults into infants. At one point, when I was thinking how could we get Putin to back off, I thought about distraction techniques and how I would offer the twins something they could have when they wanted something they couldn't have. Unfortunately, I don't think there isn't anything he wants more than Ukraine. The man is a raging toddler in a big bear costume.

@Alexandra2001

Re the mercenaries comments - which aircraft are you contemplating shooting down and where?

[quote Yeahthat]@borntobequiet

Again, did you actually read what I wrote? Taking away the media rhetoric and going off policies - Trump's policies: attempting to force increased defence spending by NATO countries; tried to stop Nordstream 2 and did sanction companies which worked on it; (unverifiable) but claimed to have threatened military retaliation against Russia if it invaded Ukraine - can be contrasted with Merkel and Obama. Merkel made Germany energy dependent on Russia (after the annexation of Crimea), Obama publicly stated in 2016 that the US would never defend Ukraine militarily, that it wasn't a red line or core interest, and that Russia would always have escalatory power there. Neither applied meaningful sanctions and both quickly rehabilitated him following Crimea. Obama after being caught on a mic telling Medvedev that "I can be more flexible after the election", made Putin the power broker in Syria.

Madeleine Albright has already admitted that they got it badly wrong. Gerhard Schroder is being very critically reappraised. So yes I do find it strange that someone who took concrete steps in terms of policies to oppose Russia is criticised heavily, whilst there is silence on others who's policies empowered Putin's regime.

The answer given earlier was that Merkel and Obama are "kinda cool".[/quote]
Na the answer was, funny coincidence on the tweet that just came up on my feed as well as a rolling of eyes and not wishing to engage on why anyone thinks Trump had anything in his head other than what's best for Trump.

I'm really not going to engage on the idea of how wannabe dictators somehow 'had the right idea' when we are talking about Ukraine's right to self determination.

Trump didn't believe in it for his own country afterall.

Lets be completely honest here Trump was only ever interested in Oligarch Opportunities in Russia and pseudo Mafia Outfits getting a gig in the US itself.

/Fin.

Maybe he is saving historic Kyiv for the victory speech.

I think so. I have read that he considers Kyiv to be the jewel in the Slavic crown. The original home of the Rus.

He wants it to be the jewel in his crown.

I wouldn't say NATO was useless until the bastard tries to invade Poland or the Baltic members and we do nothing then. We won't do nothing.

There has been indirect military help to Ukraine of the sort you describe.

@TiddyTidTwo

Putin will not relent. It's not in his psychology.

Zelenksyy may relent a bit but only so much, and why the bloody hell should he looking at what's happened to his country so far.

NATO, in my opinion, will have to intervene. To be utterly frank I'd wish they'd just shit or get off the pot. I'm an sick to my stomach at being a bystander of genocide.

Yes I am British ex forces and might be seen as hawkish but I remember my training for the bullshit WMD when 9/11 occurred. Rules of NATO are not bigger or better than what's morally right .

Agree

[quote notimagain]@Alexandra2001

Re the mercenaries comments - which aircraft are you contemplating shooting down and where?[/quote]
Do we allow up to 40,000 Syrian mercenaries to go to Ukraine?

Has the US used Cruise missiles against terrorist targets? is Syria a terrorist supporting state?

Yes to both.... its not unprecedented & sends a very firm warning to Russia.

Or we allow genocide.... its very clear choice.

Mariupol. It's going to be flattened and the population killed or shipped off isn't it.

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
"Russians are being killed or injured at the rate of up to 1,000 a day, according to Western intelligence estimates, and more, according to Ukrainian ones."
www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/20/russia-ukraine-military-offensive/
Russia’s war for Ukraine could be headed toward stalemate
Casualties, equipment losses and a lack of progress on the ground are taking an unsustainable toll, experts say

A comment below states

That is one every 42 seconds to give it other feeling...

@TiddyTidTwo

Putin will not relent. It's not in his psychology.

Zelenksyy may relent a bit but only so much, and why the bloody hell should he looking at what's happened to his country so far.

NATO, in my opinion, will have to intervene. To be utterly frank I'd wish they'd just shit or get off the pot. I'm an sick to my stomach at being a bystander of genocide.

Yes I am British ex forces and might be seen as hawkish but I remember my training for the bullshit WMD when 9/11 occurred. Rules of NATO are not bigger or better than what's morally right .

I don’t think they will. Although I get some are at home in U.K. wishing they would.

@RedToothBrush

I wasn't replying to you. But again, I'm referring to actual concrete policies. Not your claimed ability to tell me what's going on in Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin's head. Sanctioning companies working on Nordstream 2 is a policy; you telling me how Donald Trump thinks is speculation.

@Ijsbear

Mariupol. It's going to be flattened and the population killed or shipped off isn't it.

I think there might be a statement of intent...

Yes.

US pledges to support NATO allies putting troops into Ukraine but won't do so itself twitter.com/samramani2/status/1505638813519028229?s=21

@TiddyTidTwo

Putin will not relent. It's not in his psychology.

Zelenksyy may relent a bit but only so much, and why the bloody hell should he looking at what's happened to his country so far.

NATO, in my opinion, will have to intervene. To be utterly frank I'd wish they'd just shit or get off the pot. I'm an sick to my stomach at being a bystander of genocide.

Yes I am British ex forces and might be seen as hawkish but I remember my training for the bullshit WMD when 9/11 occurred. Rules of NATO are not bigger or better than what's morally right .

Putin definitely won’t relent. I agree with all the rest too.

@ParsleySageRosemary

I wouldn't say NATO was useless until the bastard tries to invade Poland or the Baltic members and we do nothing then. We won't do nothing.

There has been indirect military help to Ukraine of the sort you describe.

Will we? the argument is exactly the same - Risk nuclear war if we oppose Russia directly.....

We are not supplying the advanced stuff, talk about it but nothing so far - anti ship missiles would be a god send to prevent Odesa becoming a Mariupol.

[quote MagicFox]US pledges to support NATO allies putting troops into Ukraine but won't do so itself twitter.com/samramani2/status/1505638813519028229?s=21[/quote]
Hmmm not sure about this

Will others without them?

Doesn’t sound great tbh

Hills I agree, the comments re Putin's intellect rattled on because he was compared to trump , and what breadth and quality of information trump famously exposed himself to.

I merely said I didn't think on that point they were comparable eg as another poster said Putin I'm sure is a man who can access a laptop.

I see this whole thing more of an "I'm going to show them all whose boss" probably even his inner circle.

[quote MagicFox]US pledges to support NATO allies putting troops into Ukraine but won't do so itself twitter.com/samramani2/status/1505638813519028229?s=21[/quote]
..backs up my argument that NATO wont do anything... "USA says No to using troops in Europe to defend Poland/Latvia etc but will support with all available means short of boots on the ground...."

The posters that want NATO to intervene how to you see it working out?

Ie contained to Ukraine or not, feeling safe here which is is why you are for it or at risk