Ukraine-invasion-part-15

[Ijsbear]

Next part.

George W Bush and Blair went into Iraq on the basis of wrong information. No WMD were ever found, which was the stated reason for going in.

Obama and Merkel were great.

But do you really think Trump was a great leader?

David Cameron made that disastrous decision to call for a Brexit referendum, thinking that it would never pass, underestimating just how much influence Russian money would have. |

That's how Putin works. Pay money around, fund campaigns to get the EU weakened. Buy the German Chancellor.

He must be rather taken aback that his actions now have united Europe as -never- before. Ever.

Do we have any Lithuanian-based MNers here? Or maybe some in Moldova? I'd really 'appreciate' hearing their point of view.

I was surprised to see the times starteakers article posted up thread.
O would have hoped they would already be there getting trained up.
It was mentioned age's ago.
How long it takes to get things out there then train people up!

To put it another way; he sees the risk to himself from the army as greater and more important than the risk to his army from not having proper leadership.

Pissed off army leadership has been dangerous to dictators going right back to the Praetorian Guard and even (iirc) Gilgamesh :D

I can't help thinking that the glee in humiliating his spy chief publically might have been a very big mistake. The man must be smarting and resentful and if he isn't, he's so cowed he probably can't do his job effectively. Intimidated people rarely speak the full truth to their superior.

Key Takeaways March 18-21

The Kremlin is unlikely to withdraw its maximalist political demands of Ukraine in ongoing negotiations, despite the Russian military failing to achieve its objectives.
The Kremlin staged a 195,000-person rally in Moscow attended by President Putin on March 18 to falsely portray high levels of public support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
Kremlin bans of Facebook, Instagram, and other major western platforms in Russia are likely intended to coerce these companies to meet Russian censorship standards to retain their market share in Russia.
Russian officials continue to downplay the impact of new sanctions and proposed retaliatory measures against international companies that have left Russia.
The Kremlin continued to set conditions for a possible false flag chemical or radiological attack in Ukraine by promoting false claims of threats from United States-funded biolaboratories in Ukraine.
Eastern European NATO heads of state called for a more proactive NATO military posture and response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine in the leadup to an emergency NATO summit on March 24.
China publicly stated it will not provide financial or military assistance to Russia and pledged further humanitarian assistance to Ukraine but blamed the United States for the war in Ukraine.

Key Events March 18—March 21, 5:00 pm EST

Oliver Alexander @OAlexanderDK
Not the most comforting statement from the Kremlin, when they have used the exact words "existential threat" around Ukraine's possible admission into the EU and NATO several times.

One example from Putin's pre-invasion speech.

Wasn’t expecting you to think or be like Putin. But I’m still not getting how you understand/appreciate that a person (eg: Putin) can still turn the world on it's head, and the world taps its feet, pouring tea from the sidelines … You appreciate his decisiveness and think every other western leader is sitting on their rears?

Re cut and paste, I think you’re confusing me with another of your confederates.

@PaperTyger

Forin borin.

Isn't this the question that everyone is asking!
How on earth would I know the answer.

Answer me that.

Answer me this: if NATO didn't intervene if Putin decided to take a small NATO country, would NATO still exist at all from that point.

I was only interested in your personal opinion. I.e. if you were the divine leader of nations, and it was your decision. I am asking only because I do appreciate your contributions on the topic, so was curious what you think on the matter.

I don't know the answer to your question. There's a bloc of countries that seems to be solidifying very quickly in their approach to the situation, made of Eastern Europe NATO countries and non-NATO countries such as Finland. They seem to be asking themselves the same question.

@Ijsbear

George W Bush and Blair went into Iraq on the basis of wrong information. No WMD were ever found, which was the stated reason for going in.

Obama and Merkel were great.

But do you really think Trump was a great leader?

David Cameron made that disastrous decision to call for a Brexit referendum, thinking that it would never pass, underestimating just how much influence Russian money would have. |

That's how Putin works. Pay money around, fund campaigns to get the EU weakened. Buy the German Chancellor.

He must be rather taken aback that his actions now have united Europe as -never- before. Ever.

But why put Putin on more of a pedestal by saying he’s making anyone else look pathetic? He’s lower than low.

He’s a violent thug with access to a nuclear threat, committing war crimes.

Granted I don’t get how Blair got a Sir out of it, but right now it’s Putin who is the wart on humanity.

And creating a desperate hell in Ukraine.

Sorry op I absolutely and totally disagree.

Every.single. leader/president/chancellor etc who has entertained Putin after his first signs of madness have a responsibility to bear for this.

You set far far to much store on what this Putin's money is supposed too have actually brought.
People in all sorts of situation accept money.
It doesn't mean anything then occurred.

By your way of thinking we should all Just give up now and declare ourselves Russian.

You've attributed Putin far, far too much power in Western politics.

His only actual power has ever come from the nuclear arsenal.

George W Bush and Blair went into Iraq on the basis of wrong information. No WMD were ever found, which was the stated reason for going in

They knew it was wrong from the beginning. It was about ££££ and oil.

They are both war criminals and liars. I served in the British army at that time and I am so angry at the lies. Soldiers do not fight for politicians, ever. They fight for their country and that war was bullshit.

The withdrawal from Afghanistan what just the biggest kick in the teeth to those that fought and served and died in the years before.

That's why I am so angry at what's happening in Ukraine. All of a sudden the west are scratching their balls and figuring out what to say/do when it's so much more obvious that the Iraq stuff.

What???? I don't bloody get it

But why put Putin on more of a pedestal by saying he’s making anyone else look pathetic?

Actually because I loathe him and what he's done but I don't want to underestimate him. For a very long time he was able to deal with the worst of people and the best while playing his own game until he could emerge at the top and turn on anyone who might be a threat.

It's not about putting him on a pedestal but looking at what he did and not underestimating him again. Looking at the pattern of his behaviour in the past to make some guesses of his future behaviour. Very deep laid patterns don't tend to change. Which is why I think that compromise until he's driven back to his own land is a bad idea.

TiddyTidTwo I'm sorry for the wasted lives, the suffering and the futility of it all. The losses and the trauma. I really am.

I think we’re all in the same space re how committed he is to atrocity

But where we depart is how much will that commitment lead to escalation - and how much?

I think Tiddy you think nuclear level won’t happen and op?

It comes down to risk assessment - or escalation risk as it’s been called.

Which is where all the experts / information comes in for me. I can’t assess from here but I absolutely don’t want those leading this to get it wrong,

Lj is right.

She's not put him on a pedestal, she's understanding who he is.

We are at a turning point in history, again.

@TiddyTidTwo

Lj is right.

She's not put him on a pedestal, she's understanding who he is.

We are at a turning point in history, again.

I can’t even say he’s made others look pathetic.

I loathe him too much because of what he is doing.

Not sure where unecessary snipes to any of my comments come from, although I suspect poss from pps who frequented the Brexit threads - and before anyone jumps with any more snipes, I do not equate Brexit with the invasion and murder of Ukrainians by Russia at all.

I'm not going to NC just to appease a few that have found a new thread on MN to express their, often copious and rigid, views.

The west was desperate to rehabilitate Russia!
If it wasn't for the big nuke's in his back yard Putin would be long gone..

Trump said something similar didn’t he?

He doesn’t deserve it, he’d enjoy the comparison too much.

Hate I don’t go on the Brexit threads, so I have no idea re your views on that pro or otherwise.

I don't think he will go nuclear, no. But thinking he might is causing untold destruction to our fellow Europeans. And I absolutely think if he gets away with Ukraine he will take other Baltic states. He will. Why wouldn't he if we do fuck all over the atrocities in Ukraine?

What's stopping him? Looks at Ukraine. He doesn't care. We do but we let him carry on. So why not Ukraine's neighbour? And so on.

Cut him off at the knees

There has been tons of snipes on this thread.. but you did declare you admired him for making westerns leaders look stupid.

Bush gazing into Putin's soul!..

As pp Said he's an absolute gangsters thug whose Found himself in control of nuke's.

Aid workers within Ukraine are saying they are desperate for medicines but are being sent second-hand clothes. As with the response to the refugee crisis, too much has been left to the immense goodwill of ordinary people when the situation requires a more strategic, professional hand.

topsecretumbra.substack.com/p/putin-admits-his-attack-on-ukraine?s=w
Putin Admits His Attack on Ukraine is a Holy War
It’s always helpful when the Kremlin says the quiet part out loud from the very top

Read that and remind me what Putin might think is an existential threat?

@TiddyTidTwo Children in Afghanistan who grew up with a hope for their futures born. The boy that fell from the plan because he didn't want to live under the Taliban. I totally understand your feelings on it.

Any Americans you had better close your ears cos I know what I say next really pisses some of you off. If the Afghanistan withdrawal hadn't happened Ukraine might not have been invaded. That's based on this article I read back then www.reuters.com/world/europe/senior-russian-security-official-questions-us-commitment-ukraine-after-afghan-2021-08-19/

born before 9/11!!