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Ukraine Invasion Part 14

999 replies

MagicFox · 17/03/2022 14:49

New thread

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Words · 17/03/2022 18:02

Thanks for new thread.

A slight side issue but it does feel very wrong to find this under chat in Fun and Games.

Why not post it all in News?

( re- lurks)

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 18:03

Sorry, I shouldn’t have asked…

No worries.

shreddednips · 17/03/2022 18:05

[quote MagicFox]**@RedToothBrush* @shreddednips et al: have you read those leaked FSB reports published on Twitter? @EsmaCannonball* mentioned them in the previous threads. Just wondered what your thoughts on those were. The early ones seem quite prescient but the later ones a bit fear mongering. I suppose it's possible the West is meant to see them. [/quote]
I did but I can't remember what they said now 😆 I'll have a look in a minute

wonderfullife123 · 17/03/2022 18:07

@shreddednips

Although I'd be interested in what its Chinese language coverage says and whether it follows the same line
Agree @shreddednips need to wait and see.
PestorPeston · 17/03/2022 18:09

Just to show it can be done

Red I disagree, it can be done if it is deemed worth it.
Geography issue here: How is Russia going to invade Bosnia?
Fly in from Syria, round Greece and up the Adriatic Sea. Can be done if you are determined. Or by ship, where are those amphibian ship heading?

ScrollingLeaves · 17/03/2022 18:10

“Archersandlemonade

Please can I ask a question. ? Apologies if it’s been answered or self explanatory but...
Just read an article on sky news where there reporter is in Russia and a resident said - we had to invade Ukraine as they were building nuclear weapons”. Do Russia not have nuclear weapons? How is it ok for them to have them and not Ukraine?
Apologies if I sound i sound ignorant“

As I understood when the Soviet Union broke up in 1991 Ukraine handed over any nuclear weapons to Russia.

I don’t think it was true they (or the US) were building nuclear weapons in Ukraine but I am not an expert.

I am not sure why it seems accepted that some countries may have them but not others.

As another poster mentioned the US and U.K. invaded Iraq on a false (convenient?) belief they were making ‘weapons of mass destruction’. This was also in some way conflated with protecting the US after 9/11 though Osama Bin Laden was not in Iraq. The public may have thought in some confused way he was the same as Sadam Hussein.

TheABC · 17/03/2022 18:12

@DrBlackbird

Another way to relax/take a step back is to read what’s trending on AIBU on MN… kind of reassuring that what you might find there as the concerns and issues posted about now are not so dissimilar to what others have always posted about… like life carrying on.
I am waiting for the Russian parking thread, complete with diagrams. "My next door neighbor Putin has parked his tanks on my driveway. AIBU to blow it up with a missile? He's already tried to change my boundaries to take Crimea."
shreddednips · 17/03/2022 18:12

[quote wonderfullife123]Chinese state media reporting Russian war crimes in Ukraine... 👀

JimmySecUK on Twitter twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1504513334560927745?t=IR7Y7HV0Ppu7XhAE-XS_-g&s=19[/quote]
I've just been having a good look on the CGTN website and certainly, the tone is surprisingly sympathetic towards Ukraine- focuses on the shelling of hospitals etc. What I'm not clear on is whether the coverage is presented the same for a domestic audience, if so then I think that would be major. I have no idea how to find out!

PestorPeston · 17/03/2022 18:13

Chinese language news reports
twitter.com/fangshimin/status/1504352036808056832
Other sources are available
It seems that the internationally available Chinese media is changing the way it reports.

DuncinToffee · 17/03/2022 18:14

Or by ship, where are those amphibian ship heading? They have a very small coastline, something like 15 miles. We drove through it when going from Split to Dubrovnik.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 18:17

@PestorPeston

Just to show it can be done

Red I disagree, it can be done if it is deemed worth it.
Geography issue here: How is Russia going to invade Bosnia?
Fly in from Syria, round Greece and up the Adriatic Sea. Can be done if you are determined. Or by ship, where are those amphibian ship heading?

Or maybe all those Russian mega yachts in the Adriatic are amphibian ships in disguise?
PestorPeston · 17/03/2022 18:19

I know Duncin , just reminding people that Red is not the Oracle and rather than jump to OMG does that mean we are all going to die. They could just politely disagree and offer and alternative view. She does it to me often enough Grin

Gingerwarthog · 17/03/2022 18:20

Staff at Odesa's zoo are planning to stay put and look after the animals.
The director of the orphanage in Odesa can't move sick kids who need oxygen so has taken them all to the basement and they will all stay in the city for the time being. (BBC)
Awful decisions being made by ordinary people. Just over three weeks ago I heard a report on Radio 4 from Kyiv - before the invasion - where young people were in a comedy club and just chatting normally. Seems like a lifetime ago.

DuncinToffee · 17/03/2022 18:22

Ah ok Pestor, it's sometimes difficult to know if people know their countries Smile

XenoBitch · 17/03/2022 18:23

@DrBlackbird

Another way to relax/take a step back is to read what’s trending on AIBU on MN… kind of reassuring that what you might find there as the concerns and issues posted about now are not so dissimilar to what others have always posted about… like life carrying on.
Really? A few weeks ago, the trending from AIBU was stuff about being nuked, giving sons up for conscription, and taking kids out of school so families could get bombed (in the UK) together.
RedToothBrush · 17/03/2022 18:26

[quote MagicFox]**@RedToothBrush* @shreddednips et al: have you read those leaked FSB reports published on Twitter? @EsmaCannonball* mentioned them in the previous threads. Just wondered what your thoughts on those were. The early ones seem quite prescient but the later ones a bit fear mongering. I suppose it's possible the West is meant to see them. [/quote]
The seed if truth is needed for disinformation to be effective. Just saying.

The stuff about nuclear was in the first one. Then the stuff today coming out almost matches it. Is it for an international audience or a domestic one? Its arguable both ways.

It said (dated 6th March)

Is there a possibility of a localized nuclear strike (in Ukraine)? Yes. Not for any military objectives. Such a weapon won’t help with the breach of the defenses. But with a goal of scaring everyone else (The West).

We are plowing to create a scenario to blame everything on Ukraine. Naryshkin (Director of Foreign Intelligence Service of Russia) and his SVR is digging the ground to prove that Ukraine was secretly building nuclear weapons. F*&K.

They are hammering at what we’ve already analyzed and closed the book on: We can’t just make up any evidence or proof and existence of specialists and Uranium. Ukraine has a ton of depleted isotope 238 – this is nothing. The production cycle is such that you can’t do it in secret

A dirty bomb can’t be created in secret. Ukraine’s old nuclear power plants can only produce the material as a by-product in minimal amounts. The Americans have such monitoring at these plants with MAGATE that even talking about this is stupid.

Do you know what will start in a week? Let’s let it be even in 2 weeks. We are going to be so screwed we will start reminiscing about the good ol’ hungry days of the 90s.

As the markets are being closed, Nabiullina appears to be taking the right steps, but it’s like plugging holes on a ship with your fingers. The situation will break through anyway and even stronger. Nothing will be solved in 3 or 5 or 7 days any longer.

Note the comment quoted on the sky news article about from a Russian who said they had to do the war... Sorry special operation...

If its true the Western intelligence service will be all over this. If things are bad, leaks tend to get rather wet (hello Westminster)

Then of course people will believe later messages as a result too because this is sounding like what they are actually doing.

If you found out you had a leak, what would you do? Or it might be a deliberate strategy from the beginning. Maybe try and use it to your advantage. To create fear.

Pinch of salt needed. They are an interesting read and probably reveal some thinking going on invertently.

Even that comment (above) smacked of desparation though. It all smacks of ever increasing desparation.

Thats whats really escalating. The stench of desperation. And i dont think thats a wishful or western reading of the situation.

Planes do not go from Moscow and go back to Moscow if things are tickyboo. Especially with a very senior government official on board. Keep focused on that not the nuke stuff.

PestorPeston · 17/03/2022 18:27

This appears to me to be the least efficient way ever to transport troops from presumably Siberia to Ukraine, I may be missing hot air balloons.

Japan's military said on Thursday that it had spotted four large Russian amphibious warfare ships sailing close to its islands as they travelled west, possibly towards Europe.
www.reuters.com/world/japan-spots-four-russian-amphibious-transports-sailing-far-east-2022-03-17

RedToothBrush · 17/03/2022 18:30

@PestorPeston

I know Duncin , just reminding people that Red is not the Oracle and rather than jump to OMG does that mean we are all going to die. They could just politely disagree and offer and alternative view. She does it to me often enough Grin
Im actually getting really pissed at the idea i am an oracle. There are loads of really good other posters. It puts too much on me. It means i cant voice a thought, concern or opinion that others can in the same way. Thats not actually very fair.

I politely will tell people to fuck off on that.

Often i see something look it up and find info relevant. Then go back and review (after some reflection) with a bit more thought. This is fast moving.

Im just like every other fucker here. Really.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 18:31

[quote PestorPeston]This appears to me to be the least efficient way ever to transport troops from presumably Siberia to Ukraine, I may be missing hot air balloons.

Japan's military said on Thursday that it had spotted four large Russian amphibious warfare ships sailing close to its islands as they travelled west, possibly towards Europe.
www.reuters.com/world/japan-spots-four-russian-amphibious-transports-sailing-far-east-2022-03-17[/quote]
It can me efficient if they want them there for Christmas.

RedToothBrush · 17/03/2022 18:32

@DuncinToffee

Or by ship, where are those amphibian ship heading? They have a very small coastline, something like 15 miles. We drove through it when going from Split to Dubrovnik.
Hahaha oh dear. That'd be pretty damn easy to defend then!
Papertyger · 17/03/2022 18:32

This is an extremely interesting article I found when looking up whether Russia will try and embrace democracy after Putins fall.

www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/russia-after-putin-report/

Ordinary Russians do not expect anything good from the state, which they call “THEY,” as was the case under communism.3 Yet, their limited expectations may be described as a social contract with the elite. They appreciate a certain private space; they expect some social benefits and some economic freedom, as long as they do not become big businessmen; and they appreciate their freedom to travel abroad. Their attitude to the state can be summarized as “Don’t touch us! Don’t interfere in our lives!” In return, the citizens are prepared to pay moderate taxes and stay politically passive.

Russia’s main problem at present is that the state has been captured by a small group of top officials. Technical competence is ample and is no longer a primary concern, but many highly competent senior officials have the wrong objectives, namely their own enrichment at the expense of the state and society. The new leadership will need to surgically cut out this cancer—the ruling circles of the Putin system—and at the same time establish checks and balances that can maintain a new system.

The task may actually be easier than it first appears. Russia has about one hundred billionaires. Some have made their fortunes through their proximity to the current rulers, while others made their fortunes before Putin’s regime but have been forced to develop close links with them. Many so-called oligarchs have property abroad and even multiple citizenships so they are ready to leave Russia when they deem it necessary. Most of them will presumably flee the country when the Putin clique loses power.

At long last, Russians should obtain proper justice and real property rights. After having been recreated, the court system should be rendered independent from politics and the executive.

The first task is to dissolve the Federal Security Service (FSB), the principal security agency of Russia, and dismiss all its employees, prohibiting their future employment in any state institution

Democracy is the least-developed institution in Russia. A thorough reform of every element in the political apparatus is needed.11

First, Russia should abandon its presidential system that harkens back to tsarism, reflected in the president often being called “tsar.” In the former communist world, a strong correlation exists between presidential rule and authoritarianism and between parliamentary systems and democracy. The outstanding political scientist Juan J. Linz argued that this is true in the world in general for many reasons.12 A presidential system grants the president far too great executive powers. Unlike a prime minister, a president cannot be dismissed through a parliamentary vote of no confidence, and impeachment is mostly ineffective. The natural tension between president and parliament tempts the president to decide far too much by decree, which is an inferior form of legislation. A parliamentary system offers far more transparency and a need for coalition building in the parliament.1

Anyway V interesting esp as written last year but obvisouly before this!

People do want democracy in Russia - the future without Putin is hopeful and there are other parties ready to go in the side lines.

elephantmarchingin · 17/03/2022 18:35

@RedToothBrush 'Planes do not go from Moscow and go back to Moscow if things are tickyboo. Especially with a very senior government official on board. Keep focused on that not the nuke stuff.'

Not too sure what you mean here? I thought that signified 'Nuke' stuff?

Goldenbear · 17/03/2022 18:41

Never thought anyone was the Oracle on Mumsnet tbh! I think people have disagreed but they haven't pre-text their argument with, ' I disagree'. As a PP helpfully pointed out it is a discussion forum so the way the disagreement was delivered is in the style of the posters delivering it. Posters questioning the reliability of twitter is an argument in itself and is in no way rude or not in the 'spirit' the thread or is this just an echo chamber of 'opinion' on the Ukraine/Russia situation.

elephantmarchingin · 17/03/2022 18:42

Was there any update on the doomsday planes?

PestorPeston · 17/03/2022 18:43

I thought that signified 'Nuke' stuff?
Why?
If it was nuke stuff, their transponders would be off.

How about Putin feared a coup or was just sick of yes men, so he posted six generals to far off places. Those planes only just landed before they took off again.

Loads of other reasons are available for pondering.

Nobody, even the Russians are keen to use nukes.