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Ukraine Invasion Part 14

999 replies

MagicFox · 17/03/2022 14:49

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RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 13:58

Peter Baker @peterbakernyt
Russia is witnessing its greatest mass exodus since the revolution. A social media channel offering advice on “emigration from Russia to the free world” already has more than 100,000 members.

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/opinion/russian-migrants-putin-war-ukraine.html
They’re Willing to Risk Ruining Their Lives.’ Putin’s War Is Driving Russians Out.

Boris Nikolsky, a classics professor, spoke to me from the Armenian capital Yerevan, where he had fled with his family. “The plane from Moscow to Yerevan was packed with people I knew,” he recalled. “Lots of young people — the future of Russia is leaving.” Mr. Nikolsky said he left because he didn’t want his kids to grow up in an atmosphere of repression. “I remember Soviet times,” he said, “and this is much worse.” Last year, Mr. Nikolsky and his son were detained at one of the protests that erupted after the opposition leader Aleksei Navalny returned to Russia. As a result, Mr. Nikolsky told me, he lost his job at Moscow’s Higher School of Economics. He said he will not go home until Mr. Putin is out of power. He hopes that the disastrous war in Ukraine will bring about Mr. Putin’s downfall. “All our hopes are with the Ukrainians,” he said, adding in a later email: “I ask for their forgiveness. The guilt for what happened lies with all of us, all citizens of Russia, and my departure doesn’t relieve me of this responsibility.”

About that demographics issue...

The United States and Europe have limited tools at their disposal to support dissidents within Russia, but they can control how they receive those who manage to escape. Just as the West is rightfully opening its arms to Ukrainian refugees, it must also accept Russians who are against Mr. Putin’s rule and support them in continuing their opposition from abroad.

So whats our policy and position on this...

It has been less than a month and the situation is evolving fast, but new émigrés do not expect to be greeted as warmly as their Soviet predecessors once were by the West. Even before Mr. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, some Russian dissidents were illegally crossing into the United States from Mexico. Many Russian political émigrés would prefer to land in the United States or Europe but are likely to remain in former Soviet states at least for the immediate future, for visa reasons. These destinations offer their own complications. In Georgia, which fought a war with Russia in 2008 and is understandably concerned about another attack, some locals refuse to rent apartments to Russian new arrivals and have expressed hostility to Russians in the streets.

On social media, many Ukrainians and some Western Europeans and Americans (including a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul) have argued that ordinary Russians did not do enough to stop Mr. Putin’s aggression. Russian ballet companies have had their tours canceled simply because they are state companies, not necessarily because of the views of individual dancers. American and European universities are canceling partnerships and events with Russian institutions and scholars, even as they are inundated by requests for positions from Russian academics who have fled Russia or hope to leave. New Yorkers have expressed their outrage at Mr. Putin by pouring out vodka, despite the fact that many popular brands are not produced in Russia, and by boycotting Russian restaurants, though sometimes the owners are not Russian at all. These private boycotts have contributed to a fear among newly exiled Russians that they will become pariahs on the grounds of their nationality.

Nazification...

Many Russians now departing in haste belong to the tiny minority of Russians who have turned out to street protests in recent years. Mr. Putin’s savage war on Ukraine and corresponding repressions at home are emptying his neo-Russian empire of its remaining free thinkers and opposition movements. The result is likely to be a more ideologically homogeneous Russia, one with even less access to truthful media and channels of political resistance, and one deprived, whether by arrest, assassination or emigration, of many of its most outspoken and brave opposition figures.

There is no future for those left behind....

The St. Petersburg poet Aleksey Porvin told me that it was unrealistic for him to get a passport because the migration services were so overloaded. Besides, health, family and financial reasons excluded the possibility of sudden emigration. “It is difficult to leave Russia at the moment of its catastrophic descent to the bottom of world history,” he wrote in an email. “So I’m staying here and I’m going to look at all this decay from the inside.” Given the new laws, he is likely to have very few options for legal publication of his work.

Many of the people I spoke to said that it was no longer possible to make plans more than a few weeks ahead — perhaps only a few days. For them, Mr. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine marks a clear rupture with the past, an end to everything familiar. The future has been foreclosed. To help change the course of Russian history for the better, the United States and Europe should offer Russia’s exiled opposition another future, as they once did for Soviet dissidents.

RedToothBrush · 20/03/2022 14:10

Manu Raju @mkraju
Zelensky on CNN says “if peace attempts fail, that means it would be a third World War.” He says in talks with Russia, Ukraine can’t make “any compromises related to our sovereignty.”

Remember : Putin doesn't think Ukrainian sovereignty is a legitimate thing. He thinks Ukraine belongs to Russia. Its the entire premise of his war.

This may remain a somewhat problematic difference of opinion. (To say the least)

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:18

@RedToothBrush

Why does he say it’ll be a Third World War of peace talks fail? Surely it’ll only be a Third World War if more countries get involved in a military sense? I don’t quite understand. Sorry if I’m missing something here.

Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 14:19

@RedToothBrush

Manu Raju *@mkraju* Zelensky on CNN says “if peace attempts fail, that means it would be a third World War.” He says in talks with Russia, Ukraine can’t make “any compromises related to our sovereignty.”

Remember : Putin doesn't think Ukrainian sovereignty is a legitimate thing. He thinks Ukraine belongs to Russia. Its the entire premise of his war.

This may remain a somewhat problematic difference of opinion. (To say the least)

I personally believe that Zelensky was in above his head with his leadership of Ukraine. He certainly won't be making decisions about whether or not NATO or the UK go to war with Russia.
AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:22

@Yeahthat

It’s certainly a very strange thing to say. I can’t make sense of it.

Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 14:29

@AgnesWestern

He's sought to paint escalation as inevitable from the beginning. I've come to see him as dangerous in his own right. I wonder if the effects of the war, sleep deprivation, danger, stress, and adulation are now taking over.

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 14:29

Many Russians now departing in haste belong to the tiny minority of Russians who have turned out to street protests in recent years. Mr. Putin’s savage war on Ukraine and corresponding repressions at home are emptying his neo-Russian empire of its remaining free thinkers and opposition movements. The result is likely to be a more ideologically homogeneous Russia, one with even less access to truthful media and channels of political resistance, and one deprived, whether by arrest, assassination or emigration, of many of its most outspoken and brave opposition figures.

yeah. Though ... young people will always be able to get around the internet and while the repression may last a long time (many many years) in the end the Soviet empire fell because people did want the freedom to express themselves. You can only hold people in a grip of hot iron for so long.

My companion watched the crowd protests at Dresden station in the crucial moments from his flat window when he was 8. His parents were at the forefront of the crowd. They chose to go there knowing that it was touch-and-go as to if they would be fired on, and they knew their oldest child was only 9. People living under a highly repressive regime do want something better and you can only keep them down so long.

China keeps its population more stable because it handles the whole totalitatian regime thing far more skilfully.

TiddyTidTwo · 20/03/2022 14:30

Well Zelenksyy is in direct contact with NATO leaders. Maybe he knows something we don't. Maybe, indirectly, he's playing with Putin

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 14:31

[quote Yeahthat]@AgnesWestern

He's sought to paint escalation as inevitable from the beginning. I've come to see him as dangerous in his own right. I wonder if the effects of the war, sleep deprivation, danger, stress, and adulation are now taking over.[/quote]
I can't see how a beleaguered man trying to keep his country free is dangerous. He's entitled to keep supporting their desire for freedom and he's leading them astonishingly well. Dangerous? how the hell do you figure that out?

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:34

@Ijsbear

I just don’t understand where “it will be world war three if peace talks fail” comes from.

It doesn’t sound like NATO want to get involved in that way, I just don’t see why they’d suddenly change their tune on that if peace talks don’t come to anything?

ScrollingLeaves · 20/03/2022 14:35

herecomesthsun

ScrollingLeaves
“ClaudineClare

I haven't been on this thread much snd haven't caught up with it, so am probably posting about something you all know about. The news about women and children being forcibly taken to Russia is absolutely bone chilling.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-crisis-claims-mariupol-women-and-children-forcibly-sent-to-russia“

“It is bone chilling. Does anyone know if these are the same women and children as those reported to us in the news a couple of days ago as having managed to get out but having apparently chosen the route that leads to Russia?”

“I'm not sure they chose the route that leads to Russia.

The humanitarian "corridors" (which still seem to be subject to attack) also seem to lead to Russia, in the main.”

@herecomesthsun
Thanks for your answer. I understand these humanitarian corridors may not ever have been ‘chosen’ as such, and that they could well be bombed.

What I wanted to know though was whether these were forced deportations, with Russians making people get on to buses going to Russia right from the outset - even though the news we were getting a few days ago was that some people had managed to flee through humanitarian corridors going to Russia (nothing about force mentioned a few days ago).

herecomesthsun · 20/03/2022 14:35

Civilians in Mariupol have been forcibly taken to Russia by enemy forces, the city’s authorities have said.

"People who are being forcibly taken to Russia are being stripped of their Ukrainian passports and given a piece of paper that carries no legal weight and is not recognised by the entire civilised world," the city council said.

Pavlo Kyrylenko, the head of the Donetsk regional administration, said that more than 1,000 residents had been deported to “filtration camps”.

"The occupiers are sending the residents of Mariupol to filtration camps, checking their phones and seizing (their) Ukrainian documents,” he said.

One Ukrainian MP told Times Radio that these people were being taken to "very distant parts of Russia" and "forced to sign papers (saying) that they will stay in that area for two or three years and they will work for free in those areas."

Asked if this was slave labour, Inna Sovsun said: "It is, yes. It is."

www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/20/ukraine-russia-war-news-latest-putin-zelensky-live-updates/

TiddyTidTwo · 20/03/2022 14:36

NATO probably don't Agnes, but Putin will maybe doubt himself a bit if Zelenskyy states otherwise?

Yeahthat · 20/03/2022 14:37

@Ijsbear

He's absolutely entitled to defend Ukraine as he sees fit. I do however see his desire to paint escalation as inevitable and seek to expand the conflict beyond Ukraine as dangerous. Thankfully, NATO leaders are thus far making rational decisions and haven't fallen into this trap. I've got no desire for the UK to get involved in a catastrophic war, nor for Zelensky to be empowered with making that decision for us.

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:40

All the mind games are stressing me out. I know it’s a part of war but it’s very confusing at the moment.

I remember the quote from Lavrov at the start of all this stating “World War Three will be nuclear and destructive” it’s stuck in my mind almost a month later.

I don’t see why Zelensky would want this either, as Ukraine would be destroyed even more or completely cease to exist if nuclear comes into play.

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 14:40

[quote AgnesWestern]@Ijsbear

I just don’t understand where “it will be world war three if peace talks fail” comes from.

It doesn’t sound like NATO want to get involved in that way, I just don’t see why they’d suddenly change their tune on that if peace talks don’t come to anything?[/quote]
there could be a number of reasons for that

  1. Zelensky is afraid that Putin will use chemical/bio/nuclear weopons, at which point things will get a lot lot hotter than they already are

  2. He could be afraid that the war will spread anyway

  3. he may be overstating it because

  • he's bloody tired and overstretched
  • he's desperate and sometimes desperate people use hyperbole

It doesn't help to pore over every single word that falls out of his mouth and frankly it doesn't help to jump from one sentence to world armageddon every time. A bit of critical assessment and putting things in context is needed!

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:45

@Ijsbear

Oh I don’t blame him. It’s just very confusing, all the hidden meanings and cross talk.

I believe that NATO and the US already stated they wouldn’t get involved militarily even if chemical weapons were used. I actually think they’re expecting it, as it happened in Syria.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/03/2022 14:46

@herecomesthsun
Re civilians being forcibly taken to Russia
I wonder if Putin has intentions of moving swathes of populations like Stalin did at the end of WWII?

Ukraine Invasion Part 14
herecomesthsun · 20/03/2022 14:48

Zelensky knows, I think, he can't make decisions for the West.

Tony Blair ciriticised Biden though for sounding as though the West had no teeth (I paraphrase) so maybe Zelensky is trying to sound as though they might act if Russia goes too far, as a protective measure?

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:49

A lot of people of Twitter jumping to the conclusion that the people being taken to Russia are being kept in concentration camps like WW2. That seems a bit of a stretch to me? Hopefully that’s not what’s happening!

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 14:50

personally I'm not taking the talk of peace talks seriously until I see something signed, withdrawal of troops and Putin fanfaring a win (Ie claiming total victory even when it's not true. Should that be called fartfaring?)

Zelensky has to go through them because not to would be seen as unyielding of him and because he needs to keep the 'neutral' countries on side. And because just maybe the horse might learn to sing. But given Putin's track record of deception and lies, the false ceasefires etc what is the point of getting your hopes up every time unless we see concrete results?

herecomesthsun · 20/03/2022 14:52

@ScrollingLeaves

Was it RTB who put up a discussion piece about Russia wanting to recruit more populations of Slavs?

That would fit with the stories of deportations and relocations.

AgnesWestern · 20/03/2022 14:53

@Ijsbear

Because for me, hope is the only thing stronger than fear.

Ukraine Invasion Part 14
Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 14:55

About Russian shills targetting Mumsnet - Mumsnet is regularly mentioned and referenced in a number of places. It's one of the biggest parenting sites in the UK and who knows, perhaps further. It can be influential at times. It's not that small.

I've seen the work of paid shills elsewhere and I'm quite certain there's at least two on these threads, one of whom keeps coming back. Of a number I reported early on, Mumsnet directly hinted about several that they'd only registered at the time the invasion started.

DuncinToffee · 20/03/2022 14:56

BBC

Ukraine and Russia make progress on negotiations - Turkey
Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu who is mediating peace talks between Ukraine and Russia, has said the two sides are close to an agreement.

Cavusoglu told the AFP news agency "it is not an easy thing to come to terms with while the war is going on, while civilians are killed" but he added "we see that the parties are close to an agreement".

Cavusoglu visited Russia and Ukraine this week, as Turkey has strong bonds with the two sides.

He added that Turkey was in contact with the negotiating teams but refused to speak about the details of the talks as Turkey plays "an honest mediator and facilitator role".