AIBU, how was I racist?

[tumpymummy]

Been out for the evening, walking home with husband up an alleyway towards where we live. This young guy has his phone out, peeriBeenng at it. I say 'are you alright? Do you know where you're going?" He replies, "yes, I definitely know where I'm going." and walks on. I think nothing of it until he gets to the top of the alley and turns round and shouts to me, "hey maam, you know that was really racist", I shout back you had your phone out, I thought you were looking for directions", but I'm not sure if he hears me as he disappears off. I'm now home and feeling shocked, that I should be called racist. How was that racist? 🤔

His bad?

What? Like it's women's bad for crossing the street when a man approaches? Or not wanting to go to a stranger's house on a first date even though his intentions might be honourable?

Give some thought to why he might have perceived the encounter in this way.

People often make errors based on biased perspectives related on experience so yes, it was his error. That's what bias is. For some reason many people seem to assume it only works in one direction.

He accused her of being a racist, which is one of the worst things you can call people these days, so not very nice for her. There's no reason to think he was trying to be a jerk, but still an error on his part, and in an ideal world if he realized he'd been wrong it might have made him a bit more careful about making an assumption like that.

@MangyInseam are you mad? The man did nothing wrong. Good on him for saying his piece. I don’t believe for one second that OP goes round “offering help” to people merely looking at their phone. Especially in a city, where Google Maps works quite well and it’s not like someone will get lost in the outbacks and die of exposure. OP you might have good intentions but you need to identify your own prejudices. We all have them, we have to identify them and counter-act them. Not stick our heads in the sand.

You can totally be racist to someone white.
I remember very well as a teenager being sexually harassed on public transport by a young Asian male, and he spouted both sexist and racist abuse at me, making it very clear of how much scorn he had towards females of my ethnicity.
Intersectionality , innit?

Also not all white people are privileged, far from it. Poor white boys are one of the least successful group at school in the UK, and unless you assume they deserve it, then clearly they lack some kind of privilege other groups happen to enjoy.

Just because some modern theories claim that certain groups are de facto privileged and therefore can't experience "ism" doesn't mean it's true. A lot of bollocks is also preached as gospel regarding "gender", and it doesn't mean it's true either. Most identity politics theories are pure post-modern bollocks.

@RobotValkyrie

You can totally be racist to someone white. I remember very well as a teenager being sexually harassed on public transport by a young Asian male, and he spouted both sexist and racist abuse at me, making it very clear of how much scorn he had towards females of my ethnicity. Intersectionality , innit?

Also not all white people are privileged, far from it. Poor white boys are one of the least successful group at school in the UK, and unless you assume they deserve it, then clearly they lack some kind of privilege other groups happen to enjoy.

Just because some modern theories claim that certain groups are de facto privileged and therefore can't experience "ism" doesn't mean it's true. A lot of bollocks is also preached as gospel regarding "gender", and it doesn't mean it's true either. Most identity politics theories are pure post-modern bollocks.

I agree. Those poor oppressed white people. Those poor oppressed men.

For absolute fuck's sake.

@RobotValkyrie

You can totally be racist to someone white. I remember very well as a teenager being sexually harassed on public transport by a young Asian male, and he spouted both sexist and racist abuse at me, making it very clear of how much scorn he had towards females of my ethnicity. Intersectionality , innit?

Also not all white people are privileged, far from it. Poor white boys are one of the least successful group at school in the UK, and unless you assume they deserve it, then clearly they lack some kind of privilege other groups happen to enjoy.

Just because some modern theories claim that certain groups are de facto privileged and therefore can't experience "ism" doesn't mean it's true. A lot of bollocks is also preached as gospel regarding "gender", and it doesn't mean it's true either. Most identity politics theories are pure post-modern bollocks.

If you reported that incident to an authority, it's likely you would be believe and supported. It's also more likely people would step in to help.

While assumptions and stereotypes about white people do exist, this is considered racial prejudice, not racism. Racial prejudice refers to a set of discriminatory or derogatory attitudes based on assumptions derived from perceptions about race and/or skin colour. Thus, racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., “White people can’t dance”) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship to power.

www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

Also not all white people are privileged, far from it. Poor white boys are one of the least successful group at school in the UK, and unless you assume they deserve it, then clearly they lack some kind of privilege other groups happen to enjoy.

White privilege doesn't mean that everyone who is white lives a privileged life. It means that their lives aren't made additionally harder by systematic and casual racism and oppression. I agree that more should be done to research into why white boys underperform academically compared to their peers and change brought about to address those reasons; but not sure in what way the whataboutery erases racism? And people of course can call people slurs and have bigoted opinions based on skin colour including towards those who are white, it doesn't mean its racist.

There have been racially motivated massacres of "white" ethnic groups (Albanians in the Balkan wars, Jews in the Holocaust, etc) throughout the 20th century. Saying that "white" people can't face racism is absurd.

A lot of this stuff comes from America, which has a unique history in itself, but it's not universal.

Misunderstandings happen, but piling on and trying to create even more division in not helpful to anyone.

@Peasock

Also not all white people are privileged, far from it. Poor white boys are one of the least successful group at school in the UK, and unless you assume they deserve it, then clearly they lack some kind of privilege other groups happen to enjoy.

White privilege doesn't mean that everyone who is white lives a privileged life. It means that their lives aren't made additionally harder by systematic and casual racism and oppression. I agree that more should be done to research into why white boys underperform academically compared to their peers and change brought about to address those reasons; but not sure in what way the whataboutery erases racism? And people of course can call people slurs and have bigoted opinions based on skin colour including towards those who are white, it doesn't mean its racist.

Thank you for being more patient with this idiot than I was, Peacock

Critical race theory, on which many of the assertions in this thread are based, started out usefully and well meaning and evolved into a toxic, divisive monster.

MN is full of useful idiots who have subscribed to it because they haven't thought it through and who think that trumpeting its most basic tenets makes them appear to be inclusive and kind.

I want to stay on MN and not be banned so I will say no more.

This thread just reinforces my opinion that white people largely don’t care about being racist - they just care about being called racist.

Depressing, isn't it? And to cap it all we've now got He accused her of being a racist, which is one of the worst things you can call people these days, so not very nice for her as if being accused of racism is actually worse than having to deal with being the victim of racism day in, day out. If white people put half as much effort into tackling their own prejudices as they spent denying them we might actually get somewhere.

And I'm white, before someone starts accusing me of racism against white people.

@WisherWood

This thread just reinforces my opinion that white people largely don’t care about being racist - they just care about being called racist.

Depressing, isn't it? And to cap it all we've now got He accused her of being a racist, which is one of the worst things you can call people these days, so not very nice for her as if being accused of racism is actually worse than having to deal with being the victim of racism day in, day out. If white people put half as much effort into tackling their own prejudices as they spent denying them we might actually get somewhere.

And I'm white, before someone starts accusing me of racism against white people.

This ^^

The lesson I'm taking away from this thread is that it is far better for white people not to speak at all to a stranger that isn't white because it seems that any remark can be misinterpreted and, as in the OPs case, will be.

[quote Pancakeorcrepe]@MangyInseam are you mad? The man did nothing wrong. Good on him for saying his piece. I don’t believe for one second that OP goes round “offering help” to people merely looking at their phone. Especially in a city, where Google Maps works quite well and it’s not like someone will get lost in the outbacks and die of exposure. OP you might have good intentions but you need to identify your own prejudices. We all have them, we have to identify them and counter-act them. Not stick our heads in the sand.[/quote]
It's possible the OP is a secret racist, who is posting lies, but that could be anyone on MN.For that matter the whole incident might be fake. If we aren't going to assume some level of honesty in the description there's no point participating at all.

I don't think it's at all strange that someone might ask if someone is lost. I've been asked if I was lost (I was.) It was pretty clear to me from the OPs description that it wasn't just that he was looking at his phone, but the way he was doing it, that made her think he was looking at a map, and the fact that people being lost is common in the neighbourhood.

In any case, we have no data to say that somehow she was being a racist, even if she was mistaken about him being lost. And that's not a rude thing to be mistaken about.

He appears to have been mistaken in calling her a racist, and yeah, that is a much more negative thing to say to someone. No one has suggested it was done maliciously - we don't have any reason to think so - so nothing to really get carried away about, but still an error.

I really find it kind of unbelievable that all the people who get so excited about things like unconscious bias and want people (by which they mean white or "white-adjacent" people) to be constantly questioning their own interpretation of events, actually don't seem to understand how bias actually works, and that it can and does affect the perceptions, and so actions, of everyone.

@WisherWood

This thread just reinforces my opinion that white people largely don’t care about being racist - they just care about being called racist.

Depressing, isn't it? And to cap it all we've now got He accused her of being a racist, which is one of the worst things you can call people these days, so not very nice for her as if being accused of racism is actually worse than having to deal with being the victim of racism day in, day out. If white people put half as much effort into tackling their own prejudices as they spent denying them we might actually get somewhere.

And I'm white, before someone starts accusing me of racism against white people.

The quote was "one of the worst things"

No has said being accused of racism is worse than experiencing racism

@TristramBrandy

The lesson I'm taking away from this thread is that it is far better for white people not to speak at all to a stranger that isn't white because it seems that any remark can be misinterpreted and, as in the OPs case, will be.

But it wasn't misinterpreted, was it? Because you can bet your last penny that the OP doesn't ask white people if they are 'lost' when she sees them walking along looking at their phone.

He appears to have been mistaken in calling her a racist, and yeah, that is a much more negative thing to say to someone. No one has suggested it was done maliciously - we don't have any reason to think so - so nothing to really get carried away about, but still an error.

You're right. He's probably got a chip on his shoulder, hasn't he?

Same old same old.

Depressing, isn't it? And to cap it all we've now got He accused her of being a racist, which is one of the worst things you can call people these days, so not very nice for her as if being accused of racism is actually worse than having to deal with being the victim of racism day in, day out. If white people put half as much effort into tackling their own prejudices as they spent denying them we might actually get somewhere.

This is really the heart of the toxic awfulness that is critical theory.

Even if you often have people being racist or sexist or whatever to you, that does not make it ok to go around calling any other person who belongs to the same group a racist, and that's ok. And especially at this level where we have a fellow who presumably interpreted a remark to have a double meaning in a country that has laws against discrimination and it is actually widely considered one of the worst things a person can be.

He was making an assumption about a real individual's motives, which he really could not know, based on the actions of other individuals he perceived as being "the same". That individual is not some kind of symbol or summary of all those other people, she's a single individual person.

This whole underlying idea is fundamentally about race essentialism and gradation of people's worth and character and judging them on that basis, which is basically good old 19th century scientific racism.

It's shocking it's come back to that in 2022. And the fact is that lots of people, of all races and ethnicity, don't accept that kind of formulation, and the inability of those who do accept it to understand that it isn't the only way to think about such things - that lots of people don't accept the idea of microaggressions or think privileged based on essentially categories is a useful or accurate model - is pretty narrow.

@thedancingbear

He appears to have been mistaken in calling her a racist, and yeah, that is a much more negative thing to say to someone. No one has suggested it was done maliciously - we don't have any reason to think so - so nothing to really get carried away about, but still an error.

You're right. He's probably got a chip on his shoulder, hasn't he?

Same old same old.

Maybe, who knows.

Other people have suggested that it is because he's had similar experiences before, and is extrapolating and assuming the OP meant the same thing.

Would you call that a chip on his shoulder, or would you say that he is tarring her with the same brush?

Or we could just say, he assumed a pattern based on previous experience was behind a specific interaction which in fact could have any number of other explanations. Which is basically the definition of unconscious bias.

Which CT people are very fond of saying we ALL have.

But evidently don't believe it?

people don't accept the idea of microaggressions or think privileged based on essentially categories is a useful or accurate model

I'll translate for you - PP things black people are largely making it up, and white privilege doesn't exist.

Let me help you, @thedancingbear

PP do think that white privilege does exist and they also know that black people, like every other person over the age of 3, are perfectly capable of making things up.

I don't think all black people are angels whose shit doesn't stink. I don't think all white people are angels whose shit doesn't stink.

Black people are just as capable of telling lies as white people and it's a bloody dangerous road where people contradict the word of the white OP just because she is white and the person who may be at fault is black.

@LondonWolf

Critical race theory, on which many of the assertions in this thread are based, started out usefully and well meaning and evolved into a toxic, divisive monster.

MN is full of useful idiots who have subscribed to it because they haven't thought it through and who think that trumpeting its most basic tenets makes them appear to be inclusive and kind.

I want to stay on MN and not be banned so I will say no more.

So far I believe I'm the only other poster to have mentioned critical race theory. However, I am not trumpeting anything - I asked a question about it, because I have heard and read some stuff about it - doesn't mean I hold to its tenets.

A lot of "beliefs" these days, including critical race theory, are causing more problems than solving, I think.

@TristramBrandy

The lesson I'm taking away from this thread is that it is far better for white people not to speak at all to a stranger that isn't white because it seems that any remark can be misinterpreted and, as in the OPs case, will be.

Ah the olde white fragility, it always crops up but took longer than usual on this thread. Like any uninvited comment to any complete stranger, their interpretation is likely to vary based on a lot of factors- perhaps its more sensible to just think a bit more in general before speaking, or to accept how others feel about what you say to them seen as though they didn't ask for any conversation?

Away with you, @Peascock. You cannot make every white person feel they cannot say a black person may be in the wrong because that may be their white fragility and in the end, this absolute shit will do more harm than good.

Shove the idea of white fragility up your arse. It's as bad as the idea of the black chip on the shoulder. Have some wit.

In earth shattering news, you do not always have to take the word of a black person over a white person and there is something wrong with you if you adhere to that on principal.

Some black people are cunts. Some white people are cunts. Some men are cunts. Some women are cunts. Some people are cunts.Try saying it aloud. You won't explode.

@TristramBrandy

Let me help you, *@thedancingbear*

PP do think that white privilege does exist and they also know that black people, like every other person over the age of 3, are perfectly capable of making things up.

I don't think all black people are angels whose shit doesn't stink. I don't think all white people are angels whose shit doesn't stink.

Black people are just as capable of telling lies as white people and it's a bloody dangerous road where people contradict the word of the white OP just because she is white and the person who may be at fault is black.

This girl was clearly lying - chscp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Child-Q-PUBLISHED-14-March-22.pdf

And yes they are linked.

Oh FFS!

Do you accept that sometimes black people lie about what white people have said or does blackness confer some sort of William Tell cloak.

It is hard to understand but everyone lies and you should never ever presume who is telling the truth based on the skin colour of the parties involved.

That doesn't seem like rocket science to me but maybe I missed the memo that only white people can lie.

For what it's worth, I believe the Op and I would have had a lot more to say to his cheeky remark.