Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

[ScatteredMama82]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

For those who are totally consumed by this- I understand, I get it, I have severe anxiety too and it was becoming quite all consuming for me last week, but this could go on for a long time and you can't sustain this level of anxiety forever - it's really unhealthy.

Don't beat yourselves up for this situation not being within your every waking thought and don't castigate yourselves for continuing to enjoy aspects of your life. How privileged we are to be in a position where that's possible - you can appreciate that and still be empathetic to the plight of people in Ukraine.

There are many levels of escalation before this ends in all-out nuclear war and, whilst it's possible - that's always going to be the case whilst countries have nuclear weapons - it's still not likely, most people want to live, both in Russia and the West, which is why they'll be working hard on both sides to ensure we never get to that point.

I wasn't alive during the Cold War, but I suspect it would have been just as frightening, if not more so, then as now if there had been access to 24/7 news, sensationalist headlines and lunatics on social media shouting that we're all doomed every 10 seconds. I also understand the anxiety to doomscroll and fixate yourselves on the subject of your anxiety, but take some time away from this thread and the news. Sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is take a step back and live in the moment, wanky as that sounds. We're all going to die at some stage and most of us will have no idea as to when - enjoy the time you've got, it's precious, you can waste so much of your life worrying about things that are outside of your control and may never come to pass. Whilst you're worrying about life ending, it's literally happening around you. I know that sounds trite but my biggest regret is the first 18 months of my little boy's life that I spent diagnosing myself and obsessing, pointlessly, over whether I had a life-limiting illness - I'll never get that time back. Take back control of your response and do what you can - donate to the Red Cross if you can, offer whatever kind of support you're able to that is needed, beyond that, this thing is outside of your control.

Don't be afraid to seek help if you really are finding it all-consuming. It's rational to be concerned, it's rational to be sad for people in Ukraine, but unless you're there it's not rational to be allowing that to impinge upon every aspect of your life and you may benefit from some professional support.

@DuncinToffee My parents had a Lada too, very reliable.
When I went to Russia as a student the tour guide told us the best way to get around was to "lift a Lada" which meant stick your thumb out and someone, usually in a Lada, would stop and you'd negotiate the price to get where you want to go.

@FindingMeno

I think this is scarier than the 80's. The potential for non conventional war seems more imminent, somehow, than it did then. Back then, the Russians hadn't carried out a novichock attack on our soil, for one thing. It all seems so unpredictable at the moment. Having said that, having US nuclear weapons on our soil in the 80's certainly stuck our heads above the parapet.

Look, attacks happened. They just weren't reported. It came under the heading of Secret Service stuff.

The world has a great deal more information washing around now and Putin wanted it to be known that anyone who betrays/crosses him is at risk of death.

The Novichock attack was meant to be known about. It was an open statement to the 'enemy of Russia', to the oligarchs who came here and to the West generally.

It was a message, and we did not heed it. But in the Cold War, attacks on each others' soils did indeed happen.

Sometimes I do wonder how people can honestly believe that humans, who have been making war on each other as long as history exists, had somehow in the West moved on. 30 years peace in one largeish area of the glove does not change our nature as a species!

All this has happened before and if anyone really thinks that it won't happen again after the Ukraine conflict is settled one way or another, it's time to study history and human nature again.

I get what you are saying re human nature and history Bear

At the same time it’s really just a few ear mongering types at the top. I have zero desire to fight people, I doubt my dc will either. Unfortunately it’s the masses that get dragged into wars on their behalf

I was born on the day of the sinking of the Belgrano and the loss of 300 lives as a consequence. Minor in the grand scheme of things but the consequences of those lives lost still ripple for the people who loved them to this day I imagine.
As for seeking help for mental consequences of this unprecedented situation, the NHS mental services were under funded prior to COVID and now are stretched to beyond their capability.
So where is this help to come from?

War not ear..

yle.fi/news/3-12355669 Niinistö discusses Ukraine with Putin.

Says Finland won't take on the role of negotiator but maybe what's needed is Martti Ahtisaari, very good Finnish mediator, got Nobel Peace Prize for it. Bit too old now though I suppose, need a new Ahtisaari.

@MarshaBradyo

I get what you are saying re human nature and history Bear

At the same time it’s really just a few ear mongering types at the top. I have zero desire to fight people, I doubt my dc will either. Unfortunately it’s the masses that get dragged into wars on their behalf

Yes :( it's always the powerhungry few who have no empathy who fuck it up utterly :(

@ArabellaStrange dread and anxiety is very very hard to live with. It is an absolute joy-sapper. In the short to medium term if it's stopping people sleeping and getting on with everyday business, there's a role for anti-anxiety medication. It's not a long term solution but it can help get through a tough patch.

Thank you BorgQueen re Lumos, I was wondering who I could donate to next.

I was at Uni in the late 70s/early 80s (studied Russian for 2 years before changing to do Economics alongside my French). I'm not the nervous sort but as I was at St Andrews, I had a plan to drive to Leuchars (RAF base) should the bombs start to fall So the fear was real It was something we talked about as students.

I remember having really concerned conversations with the other assistant in my town in France during our year abroad about Reagan being elected and how that could affect the delicate balance of the Cold War.

I'm less concerned at the moment about the potential for a nuclear war - but I'm not at all confident that there won't be a protracted war in Ukraine

I do think that there are parallels with WW2, or rather echoes of it. Crimea is the equivalent of Sudentland, which he got away with without repercussions. Ukraine is sort of like Poland - but because it's not a member of NATO, there has not been an automatic declaration of war. If Ukraine falls, then Moldova (and Transnistria) will almost certainly be next. And I can understand why the Baltic nations are concerned - so it might again be Poland that is the trigger for all-out war

This is where NATO hopefully will be a sufficient deterrent. Putin doesn't have a suicide wish, even if he has narcissistic, psychopathic tendencies.

As an aside, I don't understand why some people try to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine because it was perfectly reasonable that he wouldn't want a NATO country on Russia's border He already has that with Poland and the Baltic states

@ArabellaStrange

I was born on the day of the sinking of the Belgrano and the loss of 300 lives as a consequence. Minor in the grand scheme of things but the consequences of those lives lost still ripple for the people who loved them to this day I imagine. As for seeking help for mental consequences of this unprecedented situation, the NHS mental services were under funded prior to COVID and now are stretched to beyond their capability. So where is this help to come from?

I always see this in response to suggestions that people seek professional mental health support and I just don't understand the mentality. It may not be a quick process, but taking steps to start seeking help today gets people one step closer than they would be if they did nothing so how is it not a sensible thing to do? If someone is so anxious about a war that's not in their country, and is unlikely to be, that they cannot function normally then that's indicative that they might have a wider issue with anxiety that they would probably benefit from seeking support with anyway.

For those who are unable to eat, sleep or function normally as a result of their concern and are in a position to seek private mental health support I would also respectfully suggest that it would potentially be the best investment they could possibly make.

@ljsbear completely agree re: anti anxiety medication.

@toastfiend totally agree with both your posts.

@Hillscoveredwithsnow

Thank you BorgQueen re Lumos, I was wondering who I could donate to next.

We donated to davidnottfoundation.com/

Dr David Nott and Prof Henry Marsh trained 573 Ukrainian doctors online last weekend in trauma surgery, especially how to treat blast, gun and shrapnel wounds. David Nott wrote the book 'War Doctor' and is an incredible human, helping people in disaster/conflict zones all over the world.

My parents had a Lada, cheap to run and very reliable but basically a box on wheels

Well 1940s tech certainly. Our obsession with clean-burning engines did for them.

Some may remember "Not ! 1982" - the book of the Not The Nine O Clock News. They had a spoof chart of Russian vs. NATO equipment ... two entries I remember were: "Men who thought they were joining a book club: NATO-0, USSR-1,000,000" for "army strength". They also listed a USSR tank as having a 0-100 of less than a second with a footnote - OK dropping them out of planes may seem wasteful, but we have 100,000 of them to get rid of

So even at the height of the Cold War, not ^everyone was taking it as seriously as some here.

Bring back Spitting Image.

Anyone remember watching "Whoops Apocalypse" ?

One of the hardest things is seeing for instance a trendy food hall,a few week's ago people sitting in it, meeting friends , families eating, milling around and now it's an emergency center and could be reduced to rubble later.

The damage to the world, the people in Russia, people in Ukraine. The sheer trauma he's wreaking on the people of Ukraine, trauma that will never go.
The dreadful z movement he's kick starting in Russia, that will cause massive problems in year's to come.
That's without any nuclear fall out from anything Nuclear he's messing with.
It's mind blowing.

Some may remember "Not ! 1982" - the book of the Not The Nine O Clock News

I do. Been waiting for years for it to be referenced on Mumsnet, thanks.

It is interesting to hear people talk about crises in the 70s and 80s. I don't remember anything as scary as the the Cuban Missile crisis of 1962. That felt as if we were within hours of destruction.

Thanks for the pointers to lumous for the orphans and the doctor donations.

*l don't think it's as bad as the80s as Russian has had a period of being open. The propaganda can't be working as well and at some point some of the people around Putin will have enough and he'll be gone. The problem is that at the moment the army and security services are the closest to him, not so much the politicians or the oligarchs as in previous years

It's a genocide happening before our eyes , but it's not on the level of the Cold War*

I think it’s much worse than the Cold War. I went born at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisus, but the rest was quite scary, but not like this. Also Brezhnev was quite an ok kind of guy. Not like headcase Putin. Yep much worse.

And some of us are maxed out on anti depressants and still scared!

@AgnesWestern I'm exactly the same as you. Not sleeping well, not eating well, have lost a lot of weight, constantly thinking/worrying about it and worried about my little girl who has just turned 2, thinking what kind of a world have I brought her into! The strange thing is though, it's not the idea of war that scares me, it's only nuclear war that scares me.

There are some very level headed people on here who tend to rationalise things and that's what keeps my anxiety at bay. I know no one has a crystal ball but some of the posters on here are so intelligent and I really find myself trusting them as they comment.

No one around me talks about it either and I don't understand why. Why am I so worried about it and others aren't? I see people getting on with their everyday lives and I just wish I could be like that because ignorance is bliss. I've found myself being so grateful and thankful for every little thing, even the things I used to moan about like my never ending laundry basket and my huge ironing pile because I just don't want anything bad to happen. I've suffered with anxiety for years, particularly health anxiety but I felt like it was all under control and then boom Russia invades Ukraine.

I have stopped reading the news and only refer to MN and that's calmed me down a little but it's still always on my mind.

Anyway, my point was - you're not alone!

I too have worried about Nuclear. I didn’t sleep for days. Looked up nuclear shelters etc. I’ve rounded off now, think about it this way. Whoever has to fire that Nuke has a life, family, friends all around the globe. Putin may be willing to live in a bunker for years underground but is everybody else?! Would you rather remove one man and save the world or save one man and remove the world?! That’s how his ppl will think about this. It just won’t happen. Not everyone in his inner circle has lost their fucking mind

Personally, I do not think it will turn nuclear. I really don't.

However, the west, NATO etc do need to return the threat. Putin sees escalation from us as strength. Sanctions and taking a no fly zone off the table as weakness. Hence why we've done all of this and they're now enclosing around Kyiv.

What would be the implications if Belarus do invade tonight? Will this escalate things further? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

It is interesting to hear people talk about crises in the 70s and 80s. I don't remember anything as scary as the the Cuban Missile crisis of 1962. That felt as if we were within hours of destruction.

I was two at the time so obviously don’t remember it but my DM told me I’d been asking for a little white teddy from the local toy shop for ages but she’d not been able to afford it. When the CMC reached peak tipping point, she said she bought me it because she wanted me to die happy . I never realised the significance of that little white bear till I was in my teens. The sheer terror at that time is hard to imagine. We have never been so near to Armageddon and I hope we never will again.