Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
DuncinToffee · 11/03/2022 16:19

Russia has made advances over past 24 hours, but not any closer to Kyiv (about 15 km from city center), senior U.S. defense official says.
The defense official confirms that Russia has struck airfields in Western Ukraine. Adds that Russia has launched about 810 missiles at Ukrainian targets since the invasion started across the country.
Confirming Maxar images, defense official says some Russian vehicles in the convoy near Kyiv have moved away from the main road towards trees because of force protection rather than a tactical advance.
twitter.com/idreesali114/status/1502313605492092934?s=21

EsmaCannonball · 11/03/2022 16:22

The Russians have abducted the mayor of Melitopol, Ivan Fedorov, from a crisis centre. They placed a plastic bag over his head as they took him away.

DGRossetti · 11/03/2022 16:23

@TheWayTheLightFalls

Russia is going to experience an almighty brain drain.

It already has been for some time. Educated Russians have been leaving in droves.

I've recounted on another thread how my DF helped a Polish friend (of a friend) leave Poland in 1988/89. FOAF had to come to England to "study" and sneaked into the Canadian embassy to apply for a visa to settle with family in Toronto.

He was permanently jumpy around anyone in uniform and almost fainted when a police friend of my DFs popped in one day.

MissConductUS · 11/03/2022 16:28

@MurderAtTheBeautyPageant

Russia is going to experience an almighty brain drain. Isolated and authoritarian isn't going to be hugely appealing to those who've had a taste of a more free life.
The WSJ ran an excellent story about exactly this on the 9th.

Russians Rush to Leave as Sanctions Bite and Putin Clamps Down on Dissent Over Ukraine War - Some Russians are moving abroad amid fears Putin will declare martial law and close borders

It's behind a paywall, so here are the first few paragraphs.

It isn’t just Ukrainians who are fleeing. Russians are leaving their homeland too.

One man, worried he might soon be unable to buy insulin for his wife, loaded two suitcases with medicine, two more with clothes and left with his spouse to stay with their daughter in Germany.

Another left as soon as he had buried his mother, seeking to settle in Israel, saying he felt suffocated by war propaganda. A woman who was arrested at an antiwar march swiftly gathered her things and flew to Armenia with her young son.
Julia Zakharova and Konstantinos Giannoukos, at the Vaalimaa border crossing between Finland and Russia, plan to relocate to Greece.

One Russian who entered Finland on Monday said that after his train crossed the border, a passenger near him shouted “Glory to Ukraine!”

Harsh sanctions, growing isolation and fear of President Vladimir Putin’s increasingly repressive rule are driving thousands of Russians out of their country. While the numbers pale compared with the two million who have fled Ukraine, they could be the front edge of a wave of people leaving due to shrinking political freedom and economic hardship. Many of those leaving are professionals and well-to-do Russians, along with journalists, activists and cultural figures.

“My father said, ‘Leave, leave, leave, you can get stuck here’,” Julia Zakharova, a 36-year-old employee of an American company said Tuesday minutes after crossing the Finnish border with Russia. For years, she and her Greek husband, a chief executive of a tech startup, have been commuting by plane between Russia and Greece, but they have now decided to relocate for the foreseeable future to Greece, partly because she was seven months pregnant.

“I’m not going to give birth in Russia when the perspective is like this,” Ms. Zakharova said.

Precise data on how many Russian nationals have left in recent weeks wasn’t available, and it isn’t clear that everyone who crosses a border will stay away long term. However, data shared by different countries suggests the figure is in the thousands.

About 44,000 people crossed the Russian border into Finland in February, up from some 27,000 in the same month last year, according to the Finnish Border Guard. Bus and train tickets to Finland are sold out, and Finland’s state-owned rail operator VR has said it would try to add more trains to its Helsinki-St. Petersburg connection.

Some have left Russia for countries such as Turkey, Georgia and Armenia, which offer Russians visa-free entry or have relaxed entry requirements.

WeAreTheHeroes · 11/03/2022 16:30

@Febrier

It comes after the social media site's parent company, Meta, changed its rules in some countries to allow the expression of violent sentiment towards Russian forces, but not towards Russian civilians.

I really don't think that this is a great idea, on Meta's part. If you have a Hate Speech Policy (preventing Hate Speech) I think it should always apply to be honest.

I agree. Although Meta's products can be used by both sides of the conflict, I think it should remain impartial.
WeAreTheHeroes · 11/03/2022 16:32

@EsmaCannonball

The Russians have abducted the mayor of Melitopol, Ivan Fedorov, from a crisis centre. They placed a plastic bag over his head as they took him away.
What's your source please?
RedToothBrush · 11/03/2022 16:36

Holger Roonesmaa @holger_r
I talked with an Estonian analyst who has access to info and who I regard as one of the best we have here. His main conclusion: "The danger is far from over but there is reason for a very cautious optimism. Russian advance has clearly stalled." More below:

Since last Sat it's been relatively stable on the fronts. There is an expectation of a reforming of RU units and a new line of attack, but so far little evidence of it. "If Russia doesn't achieve a remarkable advance by end of week, difficult to see how it should come at all."

The sth line of attack has split in 2, one advancing twd Mykolaiv, the other to Kryvyi Rih. This is serious risk to RU forces as the supply lines, which we already know are crap, will be dragged even longer. "This leaves the Ukrainians plenty of chance to 'beat them to pieces'.

The question is if Moscow today forces Lukashenko to send in the troops from Belarus, but BY troops' motivation is even lower than that of RU. "The Western-Ukrainian national & anti-Russian environment would be extra hostile towards them."

The idea of bringing in Syrian fighter is extra desperate. "One thing is to fight in the narrow streets of Arabian cities. It's something else in Kyiv or Kharkiv where the boulevards are 100m wide." Also refers to cold climate and low morale of Syrians.

About possible mobilization in RU. That was on the agenda last Friday in Fed Council and duma but allegedly high-ranking military re-convinced Putin. "Reserve units have no training, they even don't have enough uniforms for them."

"They've included very few reservists in Zapad exercises. Of the few thousand they usually include, the officers complain about them "messing up" the exercise."

Fatigue of RU units "massive". A third has been replaced, but incoming units have even worse quality. Another third has been destroyed, killed or wounded. Re-formation of units doesn't have a good impact on combat capability.

Ukraine's counter-offensive has so far been small-scale but when RU stalls, they have resources to start pressing. First aim would be to drive RU out of country in the North (Kyiv and Kharkiv).

Regarding Russia's shortage of missiles. "Putin was told he had 10,000 missiles. In fact, he had 1,000. It's peculiar he didn't remember how he was lying to his own bosses as a young KGB officer. Such lying is common in the culture."

It will be more difficult to gain back ground in South, also because of terrain. "In steppe you will be an open target from air."

Is this true? Had to say, but there might well be reason to support it.

Zelensky has been quoted today as saying Ukraine have 'reached a strategic turning point', which undoubtedly is of interest given the context of Lukashenko visit to Moscow today and talk of a potential Belarusian false flag incident.

Putin calling for foreign fighters also seems pretty desperate stuff for a country which supposedly has such a great army.

Of course you don't have angry Russian mothers or body bags to send home if you use foreign fighters. What was even more telling was asking for fighters who don't want to be paid. Thus trying to make it into some sort of ideological war against the west. This idea of an ideological war worked for ISIS but its kind of hard to see it working in the same way under a Russian flag. Its a different thing to have a 'religious war'.

And that doesn't address the reality here is that most mercenaries fight for money. If you look at who Wagner recruits its men from poor backgrounds you have some practical issues about how you get thousands of international fighters from around the world to Ukraine. Of course there could be attempts at effectively press ganging or conning fighters. But these men are hardly going to be high on morale. And you still have issues about equipment and (checks notes) basic uniform. You can move men, but i remain unconvinced that they have tanks and infantry vehicles they can bring with them. I'm guessing its still quite a long walk to get to the front lines in Ukraine from Russia.

The numbers of a third replaced by reverses, a third exhausted and a third destroyed seems reasonable. All estimates (US, European and Ukrainian) would put KIA plus wounded and POWs at probably about a third. The concern here has to be that if the Russians are exhausted, so are the Ukrainians (Zelensky himself is showing the strain) and theres not much hope of getting relief for the Ukrainians.

EsmaCannonball · 11/03/2022 16:37

Bloody hell, now the Russians are claiming that the Ukrainians have been deliberately infecting the population with viruses.

SunshineCake1 · 11/03/2022 16:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 11/03/2022 16:39

@EsmaCannonball

Bloody hell, now the Russians are claiming that the Ukrainians have been deliberately infecting the population with viruses.
That'll be them projecting ahead of doing that very thing. Same tactics in Syria.
SunshineCake1 · 11/03/2022 16:39

Meant to message @MNHQ not post. Apologies.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2022 16:41

@EsmaCannonball

Lot's of public proclamations in Russia about this being a chance to purify the Russian economy and purify Russian culture. Sinister language but let's see what ordinary Russians really think.

I wonder if there will be a lot of smuggling from China, e.g. Apple products made in China? Will people be able to afford them. Will tech still be functional if services are blocked?

Smuggled goods have a premium value above their price tag.

Rubles aren't worth shit. Very few will be able to afford smuggled electronics. If it goes the same way as Venezuela with hyperinflation, few will be able to afford food.

K4fkaesque · 11/03/2022 16:42

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]@K4fkaesque That can also apply to the officers in the West who killed civilians in the Middle East[/quote]
Yup, sure, why not.

BlanketsBanned · 11/03/2022 16:43

Esma, what a load of absolute bollox, they also claim Ukraine and USA are developing bacteria and viruses carried by birds and fleas that only infect Russian and Slav people. They are just getting ridiculous and playing for time with more and more desperate pointless meetings.

EsmaCannonball · 11/03/2022 16:45

On the point of mercenaries fighting for money, that probably explains why Putin said today that he most admires those volunteers who are fighting for their ideals rather than because they want to get paid. Let's see how that pans out. It strikes me that there will be oligarchs outside of Russia and other despotic leaders who may have vested interests in Putin's success.

DuncinToffee · 11/03/2022 16:47

From the BBC

Russia claims to have found evidence of Ukrainian biological weapons clear-up
Russia's ambassador to the UN has claimed that Moscow's forces have found evidence of an attempt to clear up evidence of biological weapons in Ukraine.

Speaking at a meeting of the UN Security Council convened at Russia's request, Vasily Nebenzya claimed that Russian forces had found evidence of a network of "at least 30" biological research labs aimed at strengthening several "lethal diseases".

He said that "very dangerous biological experiments" had been conducted at the sites in co-ordination with the US.

Nebenzya did not provide any evidence for his claims and the UN's disarmament chief Izumi Nakamitsu has said it is not aware of any biological weapons programme in Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the US has called such claims from Russia "laughable", and warns that Russia could use them to justify its own potential use of similar weapons against Ukraine.

Nebenzya did not provide any evidence for his claims

DGRossetti · 11/03/2022 16:50

About 44,000 people crossed the Russian border into Finland in February, up from some 27,000 in the same month last year, according to the Finnish Border Guard.

Well there's Putins excuse to invade Finland. To "rescue" the poor Russians being kidnapped by the evil west ....

ParsleySageRosemary · 11/03/2022 16:51

What do people think about the Russians extensions of targets?

DGRossetti · 11/03/2022 16:54

And that doesn't address the reality here is that most mercenaries fight for money.

A really good investment for the West would be to offer these dogs of war more than Russia is paying not to fight.

I recall learning in history that it wasn't uncommon for mercenaries to swap sides in mid battle if they got a better offer.

Febrier · 11/03/2022 16:55

That'll be them projecting ahead of doing that very thing. Same tactics in Syria.

This is my worry.

I hate all of this. I feel guilty for waking up in my warm, safe bed. I hate that this time last week I was glued to the news coming out of Ukraine, but now I'm getting used to it. I donate money to the Red Cross and go back to thinking about telly and my hairdressers' appointment. And a bit of me hates myself.

Hillscoveredwithsnow · 11/03/2022 17:03

Just went shopping in my small local Co op in rural Wales to get some milk and saw the cashier wearing a blue and yellow ribbon, the solidarity really affected me, we can help from afar by donating more money even while we go about our normal lives, don't feel guilty living your live as normal but help if you canSmile

ParsleySageRosemary · 11/03/2022 17:04

I know exactly what you mean Febrier. It’s a bit like survivors guilt.

The EU’s own mutual defence clause kicks in if Russia attacks Finland.

MagicFox · 11/03/2022 17:05

@Febrier

That'll be them projecting ahead of doing that very thing. Same tactics in Syria.

This is my worry.

I hate all of this. I feel guilty for waking up in my warm, safe bed. I hate that this time last week I was glued to the news coming out of Ukraine, but now I'm getting used to it. I donate money to the Red Cross and go back to thinking about telly and my hairdressers' appointment. And a bit of me hates myself.

I think it's very optimistic to assume our nice normal lives will continue - they may well not. This war may well not stay in Ukraine. This is the most frightening time I can remember living through.
ClaudineClare · 11/03/2022 17:05

Attack from #Belarus expected before 21.00 today. Goal: take #Rivne, large city in central #Ukraine. The nightmare continues

twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1502327485727481856?s=20&t=Pr_q1Cf1PqjsLXnLIMbPmg

I just can't even begin to comprehend how people are coping.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 11/03/2022 17:10

I think it's very optimistic to assume our nice normal lives will continue - they may well not. This war may well not stay in Ukraine. This is the most frightening time I can remember living through

I think this too. I grew up in the Cold War. It was nothing like this. It’s really scary.

Swipe left for the next trending thread