Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

Well I just read the start of the John Pilger article and it says “ The Russians are coming. Russia is worse than bad. Russian President Vladimir Putin is evil, a Nazi like Hitler, salivated the Labour MP Chris Bryant. Ukraine is about to be invaded by Russia — tonight, this week, next week. The sources include an ex-CIA propagandist who now speaks for the U.S. State Department and offers no evidence of his claims about Russian actions because “it comes from the U.S. Government”.”

Given that Russia did indeed invade Ukraine shortly after Pilger wrote the article, doesn’t that make his analysis rather worthless? They saw it coming and he sneered at them.

Russia has invaded an independent and democratic country. I’m not really interested in what Putin believes to be true, he’s a war criminal.

And whilst when this is all over, (hopefully we won’t have all been nuked) we will analyse and learn lessons. I suspect the main conclusion will be the West has been far too arrogant and complacent re Putin, Salisbury, Syria, Crimea etc etc etc, there are many warnings and we’ve ignored them.

I know Russians who are equally as outraged at the war. Their POV is also fuck Putin.

Op I am finding it difficult to take you seriously. The articles you have linked are rather far fetched. Yeltsin is not regarded well in the west at all. Putin was put in place as a puppet by the oligarchs. He was very minor before he was picked quite frankly. Ukraine is the latest in a long line of sickening Russian aggression. Smaller know could in the late 90’s in the Baltic states. Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea……. I think the debate has been balanced and Russia’s actions have been rightly condemned. There is much brave protesting in Russia. I think that we should be allowed to watch RT news again as it was fascinating in how the invasion was being justified in Russia. I haven’t seen any frothing at the mouth, shrieking or gleefulness a lot of people very concerned and trying to help Ukrainian civilians in any way they can. To be honest op your language on this rather gives you away 😉

You really can’t ‘both sides’ this story. Russia has invaded another country unprovoked and is unequivocally the aggressor. I would take everything John Pilger says with a truckload of salt in any case.

I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

All of humanity has skin in the game.

And if you are trying to state that you have no bias, you are misguided- we all have biases, conscious or unconscious, or biases informed by or own ignorance.

Neither article is measured in tone. Both take a slightly frenzied viewpoint trying to paint Russia as the victim of the big bad "West". The same big bad West that Russia has been politically manipulating with dirty money for the last few decades. Even our own PM has quite clearly benefited from these regular cash injections and the work of Russian bots on the internet.

This isn't a Russian viewpoint - one unbiased by Russian privilege aka oligarchs would be welcome, but instead the rabble rousing of people probably in the pay of Russia to spread the pity party outside of their borders.

This is one of the largest nuclear powers in the world, and these articles are seriously trying to pain them as the victims in a clear land grab of strategic importance.

I would actually be interested in reading something of the Russian viewpoint that wasn't filled with such hyperbole and weak analogies based on fictional films!

In the meantime I chose to keep my sympathy for the civilians being slaughtered by artillery of the invading forces.

There have been demonstrations in Russian cities which show that many ordinary Russians do not really support the war either.

Didn't Putin introduce new laws for stopping them? As he has with laws governing foreign journalists in Russia?

Putin's regime is well known for bare faced DISGUSTING levels of lying, and you think they have a side or a point? No

Absolutely not.

The ones that poisoned the Skripals 'just visiting for the 123m spire' just one example

Zelenzkyy is a Jew - why the fuck would he be a nazi or allow a nazi regime?

Wobble your head love.

The Russian perspective that I am interested in hearing more about is that of the many thousands of protesters in at least 64 different cities at the weekend, who are unhappy with the warmongering of their leader. I would very much like to hear more of their perspectives but regretfully, it seems that they are being arrested, beaten and silenced as per the footage which emerged yesterday.

Having read your post and the links....Nothing you have said has any validity in this situation so please go away.

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and is in the process of killing it's civilian population. I don't need a both sides explainer thanks. Putin is a murderous cunt and can fuck off.

Pilger has been utterly discredited since he labelled the White Helmets terrorists and unambiguously took the side of Assad in Syria.

I have never seen any outlet ‘gleeful’ about the moltov cocktails. If I thought it’d help me defend my country against some murdering, psychotic bastard then I’d be doing it as well.

I have a Russian friend here in the UK. She's so distraught she can barely speak at the moment. God knows what she'd make of your fence-sitting. If you want to know more about the messy intertwined history of Russia and Ukraine, read one (or more) of the books on this link: www.theguardian.com/books/2022/mar/06/five-of-the-best-books-about-russia-and-ukraine

I've looked at the articles you have linked to and they are mostly impossible to take seriously. They do not come across as credible news sources.

We all have skin in the game here. We need to support Ukraine in any way possible. There is a collection point in our town for donations towards the crisis hit Ukrainians. I will call in when I go out later and ask what sort of stuff is still needed. Then I can return with a useful donation or some cash. I would like to do my little bit to help some needy Ukrainian families.

If Putin's invasion of Ukraine were to be successful then who is to say that he would stop at that.

There was a (respected MidWestern academic, Russia expert) guy on radio blaming west for Ukraine invasion, ignoring Russian concerns about NATO etc. Those voices are being heard.

However this is interesting. I mean, VERY interesting reduction in social media harrassment & bot activity on certain topics.

You are right in a sense though OP. Our media are not controlled in the same way as the Russian media and there is no comparison in terms of freedom of expression.

However, we should not consider the UK media to be always fair, impartial or above propaganda and particularly not the press. There is always a point of view, news is always subjective however objective it purports to be.

Yes, we understand. And understand this: FUCK OFF, PUTIN.

My Russian friend has always been pro putin. She says they need a strong leader to deal with various factions within Russia. But she is anti this as they have no issue with Ukraine. She wants peace and prosperity not war and loss of Russian life.

Ooooh look, a russbot!

@LizzieSiddal

Russia has invaded an independent and democratic country. I’m not really interested in what Putin believes to be true, he’s a war criminal.

And whilst when this is all over, (hopefully we won’t have all been nuked) we will analyse and learn lessons. I suspect the main conclusion will be the West has been far too arrogant and complacent re Putin, Salisbury, Syria, Crimea etc etc etc, there are many warnings and we’ve ignored them.

This OP this is the equivalent of a post in 1939 encouraging us to consider the motivation of all sides and what lessons should be learned. The time for that is later.

Just came across this video, which is 6 years old and I am surprised to see how relevant it is now.
One must see it before making anyone hero or villain.

#UChicago

Are you Indian or Chinese or from the Middle East OP? That is just an example of countries trying to justify their own professed neutrality. Pretty much every country has “skin” in the game and an agenda. Even a smaller African country that could be affected by less aid coming their way due to conflict/distraction in other parts of the world.
So please examine your own “skin” in the game first in an objective manner, it is rather hard to do. When the superpowers are in a conflict/argument call it what you like, whether directly or indirectly, the whole world is influenced one way or another.

I am interested in knowing more about both sides. I dont think theres one "good"or " bad", those situations are complicated. Not happy about everyone jumping on the boat of ukranias being heroes and saints and russians being the big bad wolf.
I believe we sont know half of what is going on behind politics closed doors. I was about to read about war crimes supposedly perpetrated by ukranians in donbas, but dont know enough about it for now.
Doesnt stop me disagreeing with bombing and civilians losses obviously, but on mumsnet it needs to be stated lol