Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

Wow so many of the initial responses are kind of proving the articles' point

"Fuck Putin yeah!"

"There are NO two sides to this conflict" "Wobble your head love"

Condescending much?

Thank you @ReadtheFT Yes that is why I started this thread. To see if there are any nuanced articles on the lead-up to this crisis.

There is nothing coming out of Russia (or our fearless Westernb leaders have probably gagged it). ANd Putin is obviously being inscrutable.

It is in our own interests to understand the geo-political background of any conflict. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

And yes you need to shout very loudly on MN about the most bleeding obvious thing. I am against war. No one in their sane minds can be FOR war. But it needs to be said on here. Dunno why...

Thank you @Saku- this video looks interesting. Will definitely check it out.

Please share anything else you have. It doesnt necessarily have to good guy/bad guy bias. Just a dry reciting of facts would be perfect. So we can read about this dispassionately

I think it is important to consider that, while invading another country is wrong, so is biased and inflammatory comment and “news”. Accepting that one is not comparable to the other, state and corporate manipulation of information flow risks turning functioning democracies into pseudo totalitarian states. Even at a time of war we should aim to preserve what has been good about the west or the battle will be purely nationalistic and absent any morality.

Elon Musk, for example, is to be applauded for refusing to ban Russia Today from his systems. Even if all they tell us are their lies, better that they retain the freedom to tell lies and we retain the freedom to hear and dismiss their lies, than that we allow the state to decide what we are allowed to hear.

Why have you used an Indian username OP? Are you Indian? If so, what do you think about India’s stance in this whole matter and the Indian students stranded in Ukraine?

Well would you say Hitler had a valid point OP? Because it sounds like you would.
Putin is presiding over a massacre of innocent people (children, mothers etc). Whatever the history that is never acceptable. He's prepared for people to die in the cause of his vision of nationalism. That's never acceptable. Never.

True @LizzieSiddal but looks like "lessons will be learnt" in a hurry only when the rest of Europe is dragged into this conflict. Crimea was only in 2014. I don't remember this level of outrage

"Well would you say Hitler had a valid point OP? Because it sounds like you would"

Well would you say Bush had a valid point @heldinadream? Civilian casualties in the Iraqi war upto 200,000. Why is his righteous invasion alright? Is it a matter of scale? Millions versus hundreds of thousands?

Well said @Welshholiday very succintly put.

Free press and freedom of expression all flies out the window when there seems to be an invisible gagging order on any voice of dissension.

The case of the Russian conductor being forced to denounce Russia was horrible to read about. Why should any one be forced to take a stand? Especially if they have absolutely nothing to do with miliatry or political decisions

The bots are being redirected elsewhere @lljkk

I don't get it. Russia invaded a sovereign nation and tried to justify it by basically saying its nit as sovereign as us.
What's the two sides to that?

And by trying to say there's two sides to it, it's trying to justify invasion. It's like saying, it was OK for Germany to invade Poland because there were German speakers there.

By the way, politics is always complicated but invasion and war simplifies matters.

@AledsiPad

Ooooh look, a russbot!

Why ?

There's is no alternative view when a despot invaded another country, kills its people and gives them one route out of it only, a road to Russia...

OP - have you not noticed, there is no ''Russian point of view''- it is not allowed? There is only ''Putin's point of view'' - as that is all that is permitted in Russia. Dangerous times.

Yes probably @tara66 the media blackout is very disconcerting

@Amrapaali

"Well would you say Hitler had a valid point OP? Because it sounds like you would"

Well would you say Bush had a valid point @heldinadream? Civilian casualties in the Iraqi war upto 200,000. Why is his righteous invasion alright? Is it a matter of scale? Millions versus hundreds of thousands?

No definitely not. None of these are ok. But RIGHT NOW it's Ukraine and it seems to me that Putin is out of control, so that's what I'd like to see somehow dealt with.

Fuck me. Imagine being a fascism apologist in 2022. No wonder this country is going to the dogs.

Hitler did not have a valid point.
Bush did not have a valid point.
Putin does not have a valid point.
Invading another sovereign country is not right.

Putin is someone who novichooks his rivals, sometimes on British soil in public places. He can get to fuck.

’Russia has invaded an independent and democratic country. I’m not really interested in what Putin believes to be true, he’s a war criminal.’

This ^

Thanks again for that summing up @lois

Everyone on here agrees with you. Including me. War is never the answer. Whatever the question.

But aren't you in the least bit curious about the background to this conflict? And why would it be wrong to hear both sides? Wouldn't it give us all an insight going forward? Just so we can prevent another Hitler arising from the ashes?

I kind of agree with you, the language used by the BBC in particular is not impartial at all and feels very much forced to show a certain view point and stance . I recommend Al Jazeera for a more balanced news reporting.

You sound like Donald Trump.

Definitely @stairway I grew up thinking the Beeb was a bastion of impartial reporting. The scales have well and truly fallen from my eyes.

Yes am watching Al Jazeera more. I also like their coverage of international affairs and technology.

Time was when Al Jazeera was known as the "Beheading Channel" How things have changed...

@Amrapaali

Thanks again for that summing up *@lois*

Everyone on here agrees with you. Including me. War is never the answer. Whatever the question.

But aren't you in the least bit curious about the background to this conflict? And why would it be wrong to hear both sides? Wouldn't it give us all an insight going forward? Just so we can prevent another Hitler arising from the ashes?

If various threats from outside the galaxies, landed, and declared war, no negotiation, no surrendering etc, then does your mantra about "war is never the answer" still apply ?