Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

You could try looking at Roman (NFKRZ) channel on YouTube. He is telling people what is happening in Russia right now and putting himself at risk doing so. He is also under attack because he is Russian so if you can see his channel that's one way to help.

Russian point of view from ordinary Russians.

By the way northern ireland, like everything is massively complicated, particularly as many in northern ireland wanted to remain british. And I'm from southern Irish stock. Maybe read up on it before doing whatabouttism.

LauriePartridge4Eva, I'll go along with that too.

[quote pucelleauxblanchesmains]@noblegiraffe nah, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle and maybe the woman who died as a result of Novichok in the UK was secretly a NAZI[/quote]
Quite and the amount of casuistry around at the moment adds to the unpleasant feeling that we're living in one of George Orwell's worst dreams.

This may come as news to you @Yeahthat but war IS a binary opposition. In essence. It will always be Them and Us.

Honestly don't get you OP. You started this thread to be more than two sides and then when challenged go - yeah well, war, two sides, binary isn't it...

Thank you @JohnMcCainsDeathStare and @Theworldisfullofgs

Hard to find these sources with a simple Google search

@Lubeyboobyalt

Putin's regime is well known for bare faced DISGUSTING levels of lying, and you think they have a side or a point? No

Absolutely not.

The ones that poisoned the Skripals 'just visiting for the 123m spire' just one example

Zelenzkyy is a Jew - why the fuck would he be a nazi or allow a nazi regime?

Wobble your head love.

Well, don't let facts get in your way 'love'.

Putin is a monster. The invasion of Ukraine and the conduct of the war is obscene. Let me get that out of the way first. There is no justification. None.

However. Under the previous president Poroshenko, Ukraine had a high level of right-wing vigilantes and Neo-Nazi paramiliatary groups. I mean lots. It was a real problem. Most were integrated into the police or the Ukrainian army but some - Azov and Right Sector - maintained independent presences both in and out of the army. Do you suppose they've gone way just because Ukraine has a nice Jewish president?
The best propaganda, as Herr Goebbels knew, was based on a nugget of truth. Putin knows this too and is building on fears that have been in the news regularly over the last years. There's plenty online from reputable reporters and agencies like Reuter. Perhaps get the facts before you start ranting.

The one big consistency with Russian foreign policy over the centuries has been the integrity of its borders. It didn't take the foreign minister long to mention Napoleon and Hitler's ill-fated Eastern Front. More than 20 million Russians died in the last war. Another fact that Putin is distorting and exploiting to justify this evil madness.But a small part of me says we should ourselves bear this in mind. Ukraine handed back Russia's nuclear weapons that were stationed there and gave an undertaking that they would not join Nato. There's been a lot of massaging of the facts over this one, but, given the lessons of history, a level of paranoia is understandable.

This war is an abomination, a crime, a sin against humanity. But if Ukraine is to survive at some stage there will be diplomacy happening. Probably already is. But you never get anywhere unless there's at least a minimal attempt to scrutinise the grey areas.

I admit to not knowing a lot about this.
Is it true that Zelensky took two TV stations off air that were unsupportive of him? Also that he put a political rival under house arrest?

None of that (if true) excuses Putin's invasion.

What's the famous saying, "The first casualty of war is truth."

Amrapaali

I did a simple Google search.

@Theworldisfullofgs

This may come as news to you @Yeahthat but war IS a binary opposition. In essence. It will always be Them and Us.

Honestly don't get you OP. You started this thread to be more than two sides and then when challenged go - yeah well, war, two sides, binary isn't it...

I don't understand. War is two sides. The whole point of my OP is we are only getting one side. The Russian voices (of authority, of grievances legitimate or made up) is not being aired.

There have been two rounds of peace negotiations. Today is the 3rd I think. No light is being shed on what was discussed. Not even the bare bones.

Instead I have been made out to be some Putin apologist. Anyway...

@Theworldisfullofgs

Amrapaali

I did a simple Google search.

Epic. This made me laugh.

ToMockAKillingBird

Yes he did close down pro russian stations as a national security risk. Given today's situation that might have been the right call or not. The thing is living on Russians border is clearly not like living here. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with closing things down but realise that I say that with a western sensibility, even though I'm deeply uncomfortable about russian interference with Western democracy.

www.ft.com/content/176c0332-b927-465d-9eac-3b2d7eb9706a

The whole point of my OP is we are only getting one side.

You missed the link to the BBC article about Putin's statement about no-fly zones?

You not being arsed to read something doesn't mean it isn't out there.

@Theworldisfullofgs

Thank you. As I said I don't know a lot about the background to this. Off to read up some more about it.

Ah I get it. Zelenskiy shuts down TV stations for security risks. But Putin shuts down TV stations because he is against free speech. As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking

As an outsider, what's your take on Putin poisoning people?

@Theworldisfullofgs

stairway

I'm not sure where I put that I didn't want to know everything. However the articles cited are not great or balanced sources. The NATO argument has long been used by those who support letting Russia expand with buffer states. Personally, I find sacrificing countries a difficult issue morally.

I don't want Russian or Ukranian people to suffer but unfortunately Russia has chosen a particular path which will have global ramifications for decades at least.

USA destroyed Iraq because it largely dislikes dictators and didn't understand the ramifications of destaising the Middle East.
Most people don't understand Russia and the fact its never been a democracy. The current form of russian government is not that different to the Tsarist ruling class, in that power rests in the hands of a few rich people.

There is no easy answer to this and essentially the solution will be the least worst, but it has to be the least worst in the long run, not a lurching from one to the next until it becomes untenable.

But I really font see how you get to a diplomatic solution with a country that doesn't believe in diplomacy.

If you really think USA went to iraq because it doesnt like dictators you are either naive or being purposely obtuse

@Amrapaali

Ah I get it. Zelenskiy shuts down TV stations for security risks. But Putin shuts down TV stations because he is against free speech. As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking

I agree, this is highlightening so many double standards i wouldnt know where to start

nah, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle and maybe the woman who died as a result of Novichok in the UK was secretly a NAZI

I’m sorry what?!

Are you from the U.K.?! If you are you’d surely know that Dawn Sturgess was an ordinary woman like you and me who got caught up in it all. Like the policeman who got extremely ill, or is he a Nazi too? Or any other member of the public who could have got caught up in it accidentally. All nazis? My friends cousin was a paramedic on the scene and she could’ve been ill or worse, died.

Or do you think it was Putin picking off one random member of the public when there’s well known extreme right wing groups in the U.K.

I can’t even tell if you’re joking but I’m sure you must be and I’ve read your words wrong because otherwise, that’s batshit.

Putin’s supposed stance in nazism makes me laugh too. Hates nazis (apparently), fine with organised murder, homophobia and other human right atrocities. The man is lying and laughing at everyone, he doesn’t care about nazis or even his own people, he just wants to hold on to the power.

I have watched the Russian side declare their position on the UN youtube channel livestreams, I suggest you settle down for the night and watch the Ukraine debates if you genuinely want to hear from the horse's mouth what Putin's band want.
www.youtube.com/channel/UC5O114-PQNYkurlTg6hekZw - UN youtube channel

this is why you have so little choice about news from Russia. www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/07/over-150-journalists-flee-russia-amid-wartime-crackdown-on-free-press-reports-a76809

@Theworldisfullofgs

This may come as news to you @Yeahthat but war IS a binary opposition. In essence. It will always be Them and Us.

Honestly don't get you OP. You started this thread to be more than two sides and then when challenged go - yeah well, war, two sides, binary isn't it...

Not to mention we were comparing UK media with Russian. It seems to have escaped the OP that we are not at war with Russia.

Also the ridiculous assertion that the truth is always, "smack bang in the middle" of two opposing sides (whilst simultaneously calling for nuance).

@noblegiraffe

As an outsider, what's your take on Putin poisoning people?

You what? what do you expect me to say? Do you think ANY human will say "poisoning is perfectly fine?" Do you think this is some kind of Gotcha moment?

Are you looking for a fight? Twitter is that a way if you are in that mood -->

You not being arsed to read something doesn't mean it isn't out there

This

Yes Clem, they were joking. It was a spin on the OP and their desperation to hear Putin's ridiculous justifications for his invasion of Ukraine.

Anyone who believes anything Putin says is, well, naive at best.

You what? confused what do you expect me to say? Do you think ANY human will say "poisoning is perfectly fine?" Do you think this is some kind of Gotcha moment?

You seem to be avoiding engaging with any of the other atrocities committed by Putin, whereas you jump on any post pointing out anything bad done by anyone else with enthusiastic agreement.

So Putin poisoning people is bad, yes?

How about shooting down a civilian airliner and then lying about it?

How about attacking civilians after agreeing a ceasefire and humanitarian corridor?