Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

@AutmnalZymn

Am I alone in thinking I've missed a huge chunk of something here?

No, I agree entirely, OP. You have missed a huge chunk of something.

Nothing happened in the middle. He said he was launching a peacekeeping mission to protect Luhansk and Donetsk from “foreign” aggression from Ukraine.
Then he gave a long, rambling speech where his argument shifted to Ukraine not really being a country and having no claim to sovereignty, just as he launched a full on invasion and attempted to seize their capital city.
What do you mean by “defiance”? Ukraine is a sovereign nation. They are not subject to the authority of the Russian president and are under no obligation to give up their sovereignty just because Putin believes they ought to be part of Russia. “Defiance” is a strange choice of word in the circumstances.

Don't worry love the other bots will be along to back you up in a bit.
Meanwhile all thinking people look at footage of civilians being shot in their cars as they try to flee and humanitarian corridors being either bombed or redirected back to Russia/Belarus and realise that this is a SM war that paid Russian bots will never win.

@noblegiraffe

Do you think that Putin gives a shit about Nazis in Ukraine?

Or do you think that he's telling Russians that he is going to liberate Ukraine from Nazis and genocide because it evokes images of the Red Army liberating concentration camps at the end of WWII and being hailed and welcomed as heroes?

I agree and think this seems to echo what it possibly appears his benighted troops were told, that the Ukraine government had fallen to Nazis and they were going in to liberate them. This seems to be consistent from a wide range of captured Russian soldiers taken in many places, who had no contact with each other.

There really isn't 'another viewpoint' on this. This isn't about Russia buffering its borders at the expense of other nations with the reason/excuse it had suffered terribly from the German invasion in WW2 (which was at least a fact) This is about Putin empire building and refusing to accept that the world has moved on, including the people of Ukraine. It isn't about 'West good Russia bad' because most of us can see this has nothing to do with vast majority of Russians either.

Russia has problems with neo-Nazis. Racist murders and attacks are rife. I know black people who have been advised not to study in Russia or go there on business trips because their safety could in no way be guaranteed. Maybe Russia should invade itself.

What a load of tripe.

@Amrapaali

Thanks *@MadameMinimes* that was very clear. The first time I sat up and took notice of the conflict, Luhansk and Donetsk were mentioned in the media many many times.

And then suddenly it elided into a full-on invasion of Ukraine. What happened in the middle? Did Russia make any impassioned ideological speeches? Did Ukraine show any defiance? Am I alone in thinking I've missed a huge chunk of something here?

Or as a PP mentioned this conflict had been bubbling away for more than a decade and no one outside gave it much headspace. Until it was too late

What do you mean by defiance? Do you think that Ukraine should have listened to Putin and "given back" part of their country?

[quote noblegiraffe]And then suddenly it elided into a full-on invasion of Ukraine. What happened in the middle?

We knew that Russia was planning a full scale invasion of Ukraine in the early months of 2022 back in 2021.

Putin was just using the time talking about disputed regions to get his troops in position.

Read this article from 3rd Dec 2021 which basically says exactly what was going to happen.

www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html[/quote]
Thanks for the link @noblegiraffe.

Yes this totally passed me by. I am sure many more people like me would have just read a small news article (not this one) and dismissed it as local border tensions.

@DesdamonasHandkerchief

Don't worry love the other bots will be along to back you up in a bit. Meanwhile all thinking people look at footage of civilians being shot in their cars as they try to flee and humanitarian corridors being either bombed or redirected back to Russia/Belarus and realise that this is a SM war that paid Russian bots will never win.

I've seen some devastating photos from Mariupol - father carrying his 18 months old baby to the hospital in blood stained blanket. I don't know what kind of person you have to be to try and justify that.

@MadameMinimes

Nothing happened in the middle. He said he was launching a peacekeeping mission to protect Luhansk and Donetsk from “foreign” aggression from Ukraine. Then he gave a long, rambling speech where his argument shifted to Ukraine not really being a country and having no claim to sovereignty, just as he launched a full on invasion and attempted to seize their capital city. What do you mean by “defiance”? Ukraine is a sovereign nation. They are not subject to the authority of the Russian president and are under no obligation to give up their sovereignty just because Putin believes they ought to be part of Russia. “Defiance” is a strange choice of word in the circumstances.

Yes defiance was probably not the right word. Denial?

I was thinking more on this scenario: Country A perceives some wrong doing from Country B. (land grab or border encroachment). This could be real or imagined.

Country B denies any wrong doing. Country A does not want to hear it. And things escalate.

Obviously a very simplistic scenario.

Just wondering were you all aware of a scenario like this brewing in Russia/Ukraine. Before Dec 2021 that is...?

Perhaps try the Indian press? They give some airtime to Putin's narrative.

Have you dived in to the UN channel yet?

Must be nearly bed time in Moscow.

John Pilger is categorically not a respected journalist, unless you fall into the anti-west, Corbyn camp

Am I alone in thinking I've missed a huge chunk of something here?

I imagine you must have been on a desert island for the last two weeks and haven't bothered to read up since you got back.

Did Russia make any impassioned ideological speeches?

Full English translation of Putin's speech online. Have you been shown Google?

@mandajmo

Could I suggest Mumsnet removes any pro Russian sentiment peddlers. We need to show solidarity with the brave people of the Ukraine 🇺🇦

So with all due respect, would you abolish free speech when debating civilized, just because the debate offers a different perspectives ?

It'll be heard to imagine any pro Russian POVs as pretty much all we're hearing is Kremlin propaganda and we're not getting to hear those voices who are opposing it. As they're getting silenced and arrested.

Look at the police brutality at the antiwar protests.

Russia is already making veiled threats at Romania and has claimed that Romania, Moldova and Poland aren't allowed to send aid to Ukraine as it'll be considered an act of war.

According to local news, Romania and Moldova are looking at creating armed militias.

Good Moldova is arming itself. According to Lukashenko, it's next on the hit list.

Although this is a David and Goliath situation

Could I suggest Mumsnet removes any pro Russian sentiment peddlers. We need to show solidarity with the brave people of the Ukraine 🇺🇦

We are showing solidarity by arguing against Putin's fabricated justification for war which OP thinks is acknowledging nuance and complexity.

If we do not want to emulate Russia we must value free speech and that includes speech we don't like.

I disagree as well, propaganda doesn't hold up to scrutiny, we need to understand what we're fighting against.

What Moldova is doing is amazing considering that less than 10 years ago, Romania was taking them as political refugees as it was so under Putin's thumb and dissidents were being treated appallingly.

@Hawkins001

I agree with you. If the point is to identify causes of the war, try to identify how to stop such atrocities in the future etc then it will require a detailed and nuanced perspective.

However, when that's used in an attempt to provide mitigation for Putin's actions or to suggest that they may be a justified response, I think it's totally wrong. But the correct course of action in that case is to expose the incoherence, and flat out wrongness of it.

[quote Yeahthat]@Hawkins001

I agree with you. If the point is to identify causes of the war, try to identify how to stop such atrocities in the future etc then it will require a detailed and nuanced perspective.

However, when that's used in an attempt to provide mitigation for Putin's actions or to suggest that they may be a justified response, I think it's totally wrong. But the correct course of action in that case is to expose the incoherence, and flat out wrongness of it.[/quote]
All good perspectives, to consider.

“This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game”

“Admit”? I think you mean “claim” and I’m not sure I believe you.

We are all interested in both sides, we all want to know how we got here. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a villain here.

@Ncwinc

Whether the U.K. is currently friendly with them or not, I’m not that interested in seeing the POV of countries whose leaders have journalists arrested or murdered for criticising them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

does julian assange count as a journalist? and which governments/countries views would you then exclude on your basis above?

This thread is not good. Am reporting it. I have Russian friends who are literally speechless with what is happening. Friends who have friends in hospital for protesting. Friends who have Ukraine friends now dead. No rubles allowed. Family stuck in Russia. How can anyone come on here and defend what Putin is doing. Even my Russian friends are distraught.

@Amrapaali and we ALL HAVE SKIN IN THE ‘GAME’. Except it’s not squid games now. Are you really living in my country?

I'm Jewish. I'm under no illusions about neo-Nazis in Ukraine--of course they exist, even if the president is Jewish.

I don't think it's got a thing to do with why Putin's invaded. Russia's got a neo-Nazi problem too. It's all an excuse that Putin drags up when he needs something besides "Ukraine isn't a real country".

Quite probably we should have done more after 2014 instead of just staying quiet because we needed Russian oil & gas. Instead we taught Putin he could do what he likes.