Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

@Bideshi

Ukraine handed back Russia's nuclear weapons that were stationed there and gave an undertaking that they would not join Nato

Ukraine did no such thing, neither in the Budapest Memorandum nor elsewhere.

ReadtheFT

You're right I am bring obtuse.

@Amrapaali

Ah I get it. Zelenskiy shuts down TV stations for security risks. But Putin shuts down TV stations because he is against free speech. As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking

At no point did I say it was a good thing .

If I was being argumentative, I could point out the difference between spreading Russian propaganda in a neighbouring country vs shutying down the reporting of fact in your own country.

’Ah I get it. Zelenskiy shuts down TV stations for security risks. But Putin shuts down TV stations because he is against free speech. As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking’

Russia has just passed a law threatening prison sentences of up to 15 years for journalists. The new Russian law makes it illegal to report any event that could discredit the country's military.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-condemns-new-russian-media-law-2022-03-05/

@noblegiraffe

Yes Clem, they were joking. It was a spin on the OP and their desperation to hear Putin's ridiculous justifications for his invasion of Ukraine.

Anyone who believes anything Putin says is, well, naive at best.

🙈 Well I am relieved, but it’s hard to tell what’s a joke and what’s people’s opinions in this thread tbh!

and I totally agree!

[quote Yeahthat]@Bideshi

Ukraine handed back Russia's nuclear weapons that were stationed there and gave an undertaking that they would not join Nato

Ukraine did no such thing, neither in the Budapest Memorandum nor elsewhere.[/quote]
Quite right Yeahthat. I had thought there was an informal understanding that was mentioned in the Assurance. Incidentally we're all on the same side here. I am slightly playing devils advocate but not with any great level of conviction. Just feel somebody has to take OP's basic point (not her quoted examples necessarily) seriously.

Putin invaded an independent country with the view of ownership at any cost. He's killed thousands of Ukrainians and Russians simply to get what he wants, regardless of the impact of millions.

He's removed media and arrests anyone who dares speak out against him. He's threatened the world with nuclear weapons and doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything other than his own power hungry need for money, to control and Lord over others.

He does not represent the Russian people, he silences them with fear and threats to harm them or their families. He let's them live in poverty and fear free speech.

Now tell me why what he's personally doing is in any way acceptable, justified, logical, reasoned or in any way OK?!

Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum. For anyone, like the OP, who seem to be unaware of the content treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb

Russia breached that when it threatened Ukraine and more so when it invaded. I've read some of the attempts at justification before this feeble attempt and you can shove it up Putin's arse when you've finished licking it.

@Bideshi

Absolutely, but I'm not sure what the OP was trying to achieve exactly.

First calling for nuance, then when I pointed out that conceptualising the truth as always lying "smack bang in the middle" of two opposing sides is like something you'd find in "The Ladybird Book of Critical Thinking", they said that it actually is this way. So in this case, we have one side stating that there's a war, another saying there isn't and jailing people for 15 years for saying so, and OP thinks there's no objective reality of a war going on in Ukraine but the truth is "somewhere in the middle"?

They seem unaware that the UK isn't at war with Russia.

They seem surprised that people are supporting Ukraine's resistance to an invasion.

They claim to be unbiased but clearly privilege Russia's "security concerns" above those of neighbouring countries, and even their neighbours' sovereignty and the people's right not to have their homes levelled by artillery.

For those dismissing Putin's allegations of Nazism in Ukraine as propaganda, it's been reported in our own media in recent years:

BBC Newsnight: m.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ

The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Reuters: www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

So what was reported in OUR media and news a few years ago is now suddenly dismissed as Russian propaganda? How/why?

Do you think that Putin gives a shit about Nazis in Ukraine?

Or do you think that he's telling Russians that he is going to liberate Ukraine from Nazis and genocide because it evokes images of the Red Army liberating concentration camps at the end of WWII and being hailed and welcomed as heroes?

Wow @Yeahthat that is a very erudite precis of my views. Shame it is utter bull crap.

Please don't speak for me. I know what I said. And other posters can also see what I said. It is right here on the thread. Stop making up weird fictions

The Putin argument doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny. The only way that he can keep shilling it to his own people is by hiding what is happening in Ukraine from them. If he’d sent in troops only to Luhansk and Donetsk and taken up a defensive position to protect their newly recognised “independence” then it might still have some chance of convincing the credulous. He launched a full scale invasion, he’s not even keeping up the pretence that it’s a peacekeeping mission anymore.
Putin isn’t alleging that neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine. They clearly do and nobody is denying that. He is claiming that the government is run by neo-Nazis. That is demonstrably false. It’s like saying that he could invade Britain and call us Nazis because Tommy Robinson exists. Far right parties got something like 2% of the vote and no parliamentary seats in the most recent Ukrainian elections.

Aerielview

As I said earlier, Ukraine passed a law very recently making anti semitism (see previous link) a crime. Maybe it recognised its own problems and tried to do something about it.

I think its highly unlikely that Putin really cares about that apart from being a convenient way of excusing invading another nation and risking the lives of his own people.

I'm sure if he cared that much he wouldn't be attacking civilians

@Aerielview

No one denies this. I think PP have already responded to you here.

Propaganda comes in when it's used to justify Putin's invasion of a sovereign nation, war crimes, and human rights abuses against the Ukranian people.

"Our brothers in Ukraine have Nazis in their midst therefore I'll solve the problem by shelling ther homes, committing human rights abuses against them, levelling their cities, and forcing millions to flee as refugees"

This thread is really offensive.

How's the weather in Moscow anyway?

As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking

An outsider of what? What are you outside of?

You are on Mumsnet posting, you are on the inside, a Mumsnet poster same as all the other posters on this thread.

Do you think you are outside from all other posters on this thread in some other way, if so, please do tell.

@Bookridden

This thread is really offensive.

How's the weather in Moscow anyway?

The weather will be binary but in the middle and also nuanced.

Thanks @MadameMinimes that was very clear. The first time I sat up and took notice of the conflict, Luhansk and Donetsk were mentioned in the media many many times.

And then suddenly it elided into a full-on invasion of Ukraine. What happened in the middle? Did Russia make any impassioned ideological speeches? Did Ukraine show any defiance? Am I alone in thinking I've missed a huge chunk of something here?

Or as a PP mentioned this conflict had been bubbling away for more than a decade and no one outside gave it much headspace. Until it was too late

Am I alone in thinking I've missed a huge chunk of something here?

No, I agree entirely, OP. You have missed a huge chunk of something.

@AutmnalZymn

As an outsider, the hypocrisy I see on this thread is breath-taking

An outsider of what? What are you outside of?

You are on Mumsnet posting, you are on the inside, a Mumsnet poster same as all the other posters on this thread.

Do you think you are outside from all other posters on this thread in some other way, if so, please do tell.

I see OP as an outsider in the sense of being post-ideology, impartial, and a neutral observer who knows that the truth is "always" in the middle of two (and no more) opposing sides.

You see if I say that two plus two is four, and you say it's five, OP will be right in-between at four point five, and obviously correct. That's how truth works.

A truly enlightened individual.

Could I suggest Mumsnet removes any pro Russian sentiment peddlers. We need to show solidarity with the brave people of the Ukraine 🇺🇦

This is a very strange and troubling time which is bringing out some very strange and troubling threads and posters.

Whatever Nazi sympathisers/support there is in Ukraine -- does anyone think Putin's War will put a stop to it? I'd like a little of what you're smoking, if yes.

Russian voices are easily heard ... sheesh, just watch Putin's rambling speeches! Admittedly, most the propaganda is in Slavic languages. We English speakers aren't the audience they care about.

And then suddenly it elided into a full-on invasion of Ukraine. What happened in the middle?

We knew that Russia was planning a full scale invasion of Ukraine in the early months of 2022 back in 2021.

Putin was just using the time talking about disputed regions to get his troops in position.

Read this article from 3rd Dec 2021 which basically says exactly what was going to happen.

www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html