Ukraine War: *title amended by MNHQ* Putin POV

[Amrapaali]

This is a thread for people interested in both sides of the conflict. I have to admit from the off I have no skin in the game. I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor am I ethnically any kind of European or Briton.

I am just a cosmopolitan professional currently living in Britain. This may obviously change as my job or family circumstances change and I move to some other country. I am setting this stage just to re-iterate that I have no innate loyalty to any one country or state involved in this crisis. Of course, it goes without saying I am more than upset at the loss of innocent life in this war.

But I have been very disturbed at the way the media and politicians here have been frothing at the mouth. Almost all of them shriek "Russian propaganda" at Putin while doing the same thing unironically here. The very casual references to liquidating Putin, canonising Ukrainian fighters, the almost gleeful reports of Molotov-cocktail making, the self-congratulatory sympathy tears on TV breakfast sofas... There have been no attempts at actually analysing the war or presenting facts impartially without the anti-Russia outrage.

Here are a couple of interesting articles that gives a glimpse of what might have led to this moment.

These arent Russian troll bots. One is by a well-respected journalist and the other is an academic and expert. In fact British security maintained a big dossier on one of them, John Pilger for more than 40 years because he dared to put forward Kremlin’s view as well.

consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/the-consequences-of-humiliating-russia/

independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/john-pilger-war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda,16065#.YiYAR8MPouI.link

Please share any other material you may come across. I would like to know more about Russian AND Ukraine without the media dictating to me what I should think.

@Theworldisfullofgs

How can we possibly know the Russian point of view when Russians who oppose Putin end up shot or poisoned?

Particularly when the sources used aren't Russian. It's a western version of the Russian point of view, one of which is a known contrarian.

Yes completely agree. The articles I linked are Western sources. That is why in my OP I asked for other information/knowledge to be shared.

Instead most of the thread has been hijacked by people who just read the title and jumped in with all guns blazing. What can I say? Except it is amusing to watch. Have fun whipping yourselves into froth of self-righteousness.

I will continue to engage with the thread and continue to expand my knowledge.

Tass is a good Russian news agency. Well I say good but it is heavily caked in Russian propaganda. But it is A news source from the other side. Which means the actual truth lies somewhere bang in the middle

@LizzieSiddal

Russia has invaded an independent and democratic country. I’m not really interested in what Putin believes to be true, he’s a war criminal.

And whilst when this is all over, (hopefully we won’t have all been nuked) we will analyse and learn lessons. I suspect the main conclusion will be the West has been far too arrogant and complacent re Putin, Salisbury, Syria, Crimea etc etc etc, there are many warnings and we’ve ignored them.

This with bells on

@jm901928 before Zelenskiy became president he was just another oligarch as far as Putin was concerned. But since he put himself at the helm via the closed snap election over the past few years he's been in at NATO fairly consistently and pushing at the Donbass - the two actions combined are a threat as far as Russia's concerned. Obviously now it looks like he's not quite as chummy with NATO as he thought because they won't give him his no fly zone but Russia couldn't know that without acting.

But it seems a complete contradiction in logic

That's because it does. Of the EU 27 there are 21 in NATO and only one of them has nukes; France. In fact there are only 3 NATO countries with nuclear weapons, France, UK and USA. Estonia, Latvia and Norway are all NATO members who have a land border with Russia, none of them have nuclear weapons. Norway was one of the founding members and Estonia and Latvia have joined in 2004, they've all had plenty of time to acquire nuclear weapons or allow for one of the other nuclear NATO countries to use them as a nuclear base for Russia. The truth is the US could nuke Russia off the face of the earth from home if they wanted to, proximity does not increase Russia's risk, Putin's behaviour is doing a fine job of that.

@Theworldisfullofgs Putin didn't mention a lot of things. He's got an agenda. Obviously.

@ClemFandangoo

I guess there's also the question of how this regime that we're now suddenly told is evil

It’s been ‘evil’ for the last 10 years at least. It’s not sudden. What’s sudden is how our (and other) governments are suddenly up in arms about it. A British woman was indirectly poisoned after an assassination by the Kremlin in British soil and they still did nothing (much). Money talks as they say

Yep hurrah for capitalism! All good when the yachts were docked and multi-million pound mansions in Mayfair sold like hot cakes.

But now it's all "Seize the houses! Off with their heads!" And hand-wringing about Lord Evgeny Lebedev

Instead most of the thread has been hijacked by people who just read the title and jumped in with all guns blazing. What can I say? Except it is amusing to watch. Have fun whipping yourselves into froth of self-righteousness.

Interestingly cold hearted take on people feelings about a war on our doorstep.

@Amrapaali

Tass is a good Russian news agency. Well I say good but it is heavily caked in Russian propaganda. But it is A news source from the other side. Which means the actual truth lies somewhere bang in the middle

Why reduce it to a binary opposition of their side and our side, with the truth "in the middle"? It seems to me quite a facile description.

When one side has invaded another country and banned the use of the term, "war" to describe the events, would you not admit that we are objectively being presented with more truthful information here?

Do you have a soul OP?

[quote BookkeeperBobby]@jm901928 before Zelenskiy became president he was just another oligarch as far as Putin was concerned. But since he put himself at the helm via the closed snap election over the past few years he's been in at NATO fairly consistently and pushing at the Donbass - the two actions combined are a threat as far as Russia's concerned. Obviously now it looks like he's not quite as chummy with NATO as he thought because they won't give him his no fly zone but Russia couldn't know that without acting.[/quote]
In this regard I feel very sorry for Ukraine. Zelenskiy's desperate begging for a no-fly zone and NATO has simply declared "nah mate"

I remember a military expert on PM last week mentioning the West should make up it's mind: either go all out and help Ukraine or as unpalatable as it is, leave it to Russia. This piecemeal "aid" isn't actually helping anyone

Aye it's a mess all round alright.

[quote Yeahthat]@Amrapaali

Tass is a good Russian news agency. Well I say good but it is heavily caked in Russian propaganda. But it is A news source from the other side. Which means the actual truth lies somewhere bang in the middle

Why reduce it to a binary opposition of their side and our side, with the truth "in the middle"? It seems to me quite a facile description.

When one side has invaded another country and banned the use of the term, "war" to describe the events, would you not admit that we are objectively being presented with more truthful information here?[/quote]
This may come as news to you @Yeahthat but war IS a binary opposition. In essence. It will always be Them and Us.

*Yep hurrah for capitalism! All good when the yachts were docked and multi-million pound mansions in Mayfair sold like hot cakes.

But now it's all "Seize the houses! Off with their heads!" And hand-wringing about Lord Evgeny Lebedev*

astute and insightful analysis, OP.

@loislovesstewie

Hitler did not have a valid point. Bush did not have a valid point. Putin does not have a valid point. Invading another sovereign country is not right.

Exactly. And yet Britain continues to occupy six counties of Ireland.🙄

@Amrapaali

This may come as news to you but the UK is not at war with Russia.

Any clarification of your facile description of the truth being "smack bang in the middle" of one side which says there is no war, and sends people to jail for 15 years for saying so, and another that says there is a war.

To be fair, if you've been at all following the Trump/Russia stories and the interference in the US elections and Brexit election here, you'd probably have a few less splinters in your arse from all the fence sitting.

The guy played Trump (though that doesn't seem difficult) for a fool, and gas orchestrated a slow rise of right wing activism across Europe and the USA so insidious we have hardly noticed it. The proverbial frog in the pan.

Meanwhile, he accuses the Jewish grandson of Holocaust survivors of being a Nazi, whilst invading their country and killing citizens. The man accuses other of that of which he is guilty.

Tass is a good Russian news agency. Well I say good but it is heavily caked in Russian propaganda. But it is A news source from the other side. Which means the actual truth lies somewhere bang in the middle

But didn't the Russian state close down any media not specifically touting the party line last week? So Russian media is an extension of the Kermlin's statements, but not a reflection on a) what actually Russian people know or think and b) not a true reflection of the impact of sanctions on ordinary Russian people.

While I think it is right to try understand both sides and to see media from all sources, unfortuately in this case there isn't a valid Russian source of media because Russian media= Kermlin not Russia

@GuyFawkesDay

To be fair, if you've been at all following the Trump/Russia stories and the interference in the US elections and Brexit election here, you'd probably have a few less splinters in your arse from all the fence sitting.

The guy played Trump (though that doesn't seem difficult) for a fool, and gas orchestrated a slow rise of right wing activism across Europe and the USA so insidious we have hardly noticed it. The proverbial frog in the pan.

Meanwhile, he accuses the Jewish grandson of Holocaust survivors of being a Nazi, whilst invading their country and killing citizens. The man accuses other of that of which he is guilty.

Yes, was about to post this.

www.thejc.com/news/world/putins-neo-nazi-smear-springs-from-soviet-version-of-history-7jkOLnbDKiMYnT2MpNGjO1

"Which means the actual truth lies somewhere bang in the middle" - this is very much not how truth works.

*loislovesstewie

Hitler did not have a valid point.
Bush did not have a valid point.
Putin does not have a valid point.
Invading another sovereign country is not right.

Exactly. And yet Britain continues to occupy six counties of Ireland.🙄*

Well quite!!

@LauriePartridge4Eva Exactly. And yet Britain continues to occupy six counties of Ireland.🙄

So True.
Not to mention the refusal to bring any transparency or prosecutions to the soldiers involved in killing civilians and opening fire on civilian populations.

Genuinely find it very funny that I said a few posts back that people always bring up the Azov battalion as a get-out-of-invasion free card and here we are. Anyway if you are genuinely concerned about neo-Nazism in Europe I would suggest looking up Alexander Dugin who has a worrying amount of influence in Russia and with Putin.

To be fair, if you've been at all following the Trump/Russia stories and the interference in the US elections and Brexit election here, you'd probably have a few less splinters in your arse from all the fence sitting.

Or followed the assassination of Litvinenko, or the poisoning of the Skripals, both on British soil.

Or noticed that Navalny, the leader of the Opposition in Russia, was also poisoned with Novichok.

Putin....such a misunderstood guy, we should hear him out.

@noblegiraffe nah, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle and maybe the woman who died as a result of Novichok in the UK was secretly a NAZI

@ClemFandangoo

I guess there's also the question of how this regime that we're now suddenly told is evil

It’s been ‘evil’ for the last 10 years at least. It’s not sudden. What’s sudden is how our (and other) governments are suddenly up in arms about it. A British woman was indirectly poisoned after an assassination by the Kremlin in British soil and they still did nothing (much). Money talks as they say

I used to follow the journalist Anna Politovskaya who wrote about Putin's corruption. She was murdered in 2006.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya

All of the murders and corruption and attrocities that Putin and his cronies have been a part of have made the news here. We can find every story in the archives of english language news sites. No one in our top echelons appeared to think it a problem enough to halt the growth of Londongrad did they with all that talking money?

Putin and Lukashenko should have been sanctioned into the ground last November when they dropped desperate people into the Belorussian forests to fight or die www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59226226, thus leaving no room anymore for any doubt about who they are and what they are capable of. Maybe that would have saved Ukraine from the horrific attack.

www.economist.com/by-invitation/2022/03/02/lithuanias-prime-minister-ingrida-simonyte-says-russias-invasion-was-predictable
"For a democratic leader, human life is more precious than anything else. For a dictator, no human sacrifice is too great a barrier to ambition"