Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@RedToothBrush you’re quite rude aren’t you ?

I understand the situation perfectly

Sadly though I think there comes a time where someone has to back down for the greater good[/quote]
The greater good is not backing down right now.

@FacebookPhotos

So it was Priti Patel telling porkies.

Honestly, I do not understand how people can possibly trust these charlatans. Not one could tell the truth if their lives depended on it.

I don't understand how that politician can look at herself in the mirror tbh.

@prettybird

Would you say that to your child *@ThirtyAndfeelingFifty* if they were being beaten up by the school bully? Just give him what he wants? And of course the bully will never ask for anything ever again

Yes - I would and it’s worked sometimes people just want a reaction and walking a way just resolves the whole situation.

@GallopingHighRoad

Yes it is because unless they give in we are on our way to ww3. It’s better to give in now and although that is devastating for the Ukraine it’s sadly preferable than the whole world being destroyed in a nuclear war.

Putin is clearly unwell/unstable and he needs to not be backed into a corner . If he wins this he may very well be satisfied with that and stop his campaign. It’s not a given he will go for other countries like some believe

Thirty - so you’d be happy if we were in the situation outlined by Red in their post at 17:43? Or is it a case of ‘for the greater good, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience me’?

@ThirtyAndfeelingFifty

No, RedToothBrush has a grip on what's happened in the past and can see the implications of what acceptance now on those terms would mean in the future not only for the Ukraine but for further Russian expansion in the future.

Try looking at Putin's history and what he's achieved, and just how much he values his promises.

Yes - I would and it’s worked sometimes people just want a reaction and walking a way just resolves the whole situation

It wouldn't simply be walking away though. It would be the equivalent of your child agreeing to do what the bully tells them for the rest of time with no guarantee of the bully never beating up the child again or using other ways to hurt them.

I want to see an end to this, but Putin's demands are outrageous and he knows they won't be accepted.

I pity any child of yours then @ThirtyAndfeelingFifty - being taught that bullying is the way to get things with no repercussions

I agree that bullies often just want a reaction (and my ds learnt to deal with a bully at primary school by not reacting to him) but if the bully's actions spill over into physicality and theft, then just giving him what he wants is not the way to deal with him.

So Ukraine should sacrifice themselves in the gain hope that Russia won't attack any other sovereign nation. That has not worked very well in the past

*vain

I don’t think installing a PM can be accepted

Very sad though, as I hoped it was the start of an end possibly

Greater good. Dear Lord.

Yes I will be rude when someone who runs a totalitarian regime demands the complete surrender of a democracy and your response is

'fair enough'

Without comprehending what they are actually saying.

To quote Godwin, do you think we should have done the same with Hitler after Poland?

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@GallopingHighRoad

Yes it is because unless they give in we are on our way to ww3. It’s better to give in now and although that is devastating for the Ukraine it’s sadly preferable than the whole world being destroyed in a nuclear war.

Putin is clearly unwell/unstable and he needs to not be backed into a corner . If he wins this he may very well be satisfied with that and stop his campaign. It’s not a given he will go for other countries like some believe[/quote]
So Ukraine gets to suffer and denied the right to freedom so that the rest of us may merrily live our lives?

How very noble of us, offering up Ukraine as the sacrificial lamb.

Putin is not unwell and unstable.

Incorrect, yes.
Immoral, yes.
Out of touch with reality, yes.

But not actually unwell or unstable or insane.

Most experts do not believe that he is unwell or unstable - it's just that his actions are easy for us to look at as unstable because they are through a totally different lens to how we see the world.

This thread from Lavrov's predecessor is the latest saying the same thing...

twitter.com/andreivkozyrev/status/1500610676926005251?s=21

The threat of nuclear war is very real. We can’t ignore that just because everyone things that mutually assured destruction will put putin off . That would be assuming he’s 100% ok and I don’t t think he is which makes him likely to act irrationally and we can’t just risk the whole world ??

We should be supporting Ukraine to try to get everyone out who wants to leave and just let Putin have what he wants. He’s too dangerous

What? Surely they can't accept? They're an independent country? They can't be beholden to what another country does and does not permit it to do! (Or have I misunderstood what people are suggesting?)

Yes the war needs to stop, but stopping it by giving in and letting another country have such power over you isn't the way.

Admittedly I don't know what the solution is, but surely it isn't this?

Yes - I would and it’s worked sometimes people just want a reaction and walking a way just resolves the whole situation

How do you walk away from being invaded ?

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@GallopingHighRoad

Yes it is because unless they give in we are on our way to ww3. It’s better to give in now and although that is devastating for the Ukraine it’s sadly preferable than the whole world being destroyed in a nuclear war.

Putin is clearly unwell/unstable and he needs to not be backed into a corner . If he wins this he may very well be satisfied with that and stop his campaign. It’s not a given he will go for other countries like some believe[/quote]
Would you feel the same way if it was your country instead of Ukraine? If it would be you living in a country that has had its sovereignty and democracy taken from it, forever bent to the will of Russia?

@Rheia1983 what would you prefer then ww3?

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@GallopingHighRoad

Yes it is because unless they give in we are on our way to ww3. It’s better to give in now and although that is devastating for the Ukraine it’s sadly preferable than the whole world being destroyed in a nuclear war.

Putin is clearly unwell/unstable and he needs to not be backed into a corner . If he wins this he may very well be satisfied with that and stop his campaign. It’s not a given he will go for other countries like some believe[/quote]
It’s not a given that not sacrificing Ukraine will result in a nuclear war, in fact the likelihood is very low.

Do you honestly believe that capitulating now will make Putin stop or are you willing yourself to believe that so you can pretend that your chosen course of action won’t condemn millions of Ukrainians (at best) to a life without democracy? Because that’s what will happen.

That Calais poster is just unbelievably shocking.

Despite all the awful things this government has done over the darkest times in the last few years, I have never felt more ashamed of our country than I do right now.

It's despicable.

Anyone hear on PM thé saga of the poor guy with the Ukrainian partner trying to get her back to the U.K.? Who was told she had to have her fingerprints taken in Kiev for her visa application? Things apparently changed today. HO have at least admitted the fingerprint place in Kiev is 'likely closed'. He apparently responded it was 'likely' not there anymore.

RTB thanks as ever for you clear sighted contributions, and for summarising / quoting things from Twitter. As I am not on there, links don't work for me, so that is incredibly helpful.

'The greater good' would, possibly (zero guarantee), temporarily stop the current attack on Ukraine.
I don't see how it would improve Ukrainians day to day life in the long term. They were already struggling with corruption and a series of other issues. On top of which, they'd be ruled by another country whilst dealing with the terrible destruction from this war.
It would also, most likely result in further attempts by Russia to acquire further territories. Moldova would be next in line without a shadow of doubt.
And so on.

So eventually a series of independent democratic countries would simply disappear. Which is wrong. Full stop.

I really do hope Ukraine will receive more solid support, but I can't think how right this moment.

Putin is a text book bully, as others in here have pointed out.
He would always start a disagreement regardless of what anyone says or does.

@Natsku

Yes I would feel the same 100%

Also if Ukraine do agree, what's to stop Russia then doing the same to somebody else?

Surely people aren't suggesting that this is what they do?

@Branster

'The greater good' would, possibly (zero guarantee), temporarily stop the current attack on Ukraine. I don't see how it would improve Ukrainians day to day life in the long term. They were already struggling with corruption and a series of other issues. On top of which, they'd be ruled by another country whilst dealing with the terrible destruction from this war. It would also, most likely result in further attempts by Russia to acquire further territories. Moldova would be next in line without a shadow of doubt. And so on.

So eventually a series of independent democratic countries would simply disappear. Which is wrong. Full stop.

I really do hope Ukraine will receive more solid support, but I can't think how right this moment.

Putin is a text book bully, as others in here have pointed out.
He would always start a disagreement regardless of what anyone says or does.

I think we should be agreeing to take in as many Ukrainians as necessary actually.

If they have to make the sacrifice then the rest off the works needs to step up and support them in any way. But not fighting and escalating the correct war that’s not the way forward