Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

Of course Ukraine shouldn't accept those terms or anything like them.

How easy is it for some of us to sit in comfort in the UK (or wherever) saying... yeah, OK, just let him rule you and instal an unelected brute as your PM, and you can't ever ask for help from Europe again.

We would store up problems for the whole of Europe if he conceded to that. Which he obviously won't.
Ukraine are a proud people... to lose so many civilians, it would be an insult to them to just roll over to Putin, hard though that decision is.

works-world

Listening to PM on the BBC just now, they were very clear that the Kremlin spokesman who announced the offer stated, "Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment"."

Ukraine gave up it's soviet-inherited nuclear weapons on the basis of guarantees from Russia, the USA, and ourselves that their borders would be respected.

Are they really going to sign up for a deal which includes an implicit expectation of full demilitarisation? To a country which has broken - what - three? four? ceasefires in the past few days?

They'd be mad!

@ThirtyAndfeelingFifty

Have you watched Winter on Fire on Netflix about Ukraine in 2014?

I wasn’t sure if you would all be interested, but I don’t live in the UK but in Norway. Today all children in school or barnehage (nursery) have come home with a permission slip for parents to sign for school to administer iodine medication in the event of a nuclear emergency.

This happened here when the Chernobyl disaster happened, but it did take me by surprise today. I’m a teacher here and all of the schools and barnehages here have received the stock of iodine tablets either last Friday or this morning.

I haven’t been overly concerned so far, but this has shaken me a little. However, the Norwegian government are generally very good at being proactive and preventative and this was apparent during covid too. So I am trying to remember this as it helps keep perspective.

If you haven't, please watch it and then come back and see if you feel the same

@minsmum

I have seen a list of Ukrainian demands of Russia, it's a joke btw. 1 Russia withdraw from all of Ukraine 2 Putin present himself to the international court of justice 3 Free and fair elections in Russia 4 Russia make full reparations to Ukraine 5 Russia make a plan for eventually joint the EU and NATO 6 Russia change their national language to Ukrainian

How utterly ridiculous you would've thought peace was wanted.

[quote wheresmymojo]Putin is not unwell and unstable.

Incorrect, yes.
Immoral, yes.
Out of touch with reality, yes.

But not actually unwell or unstable or insane.

Most experts do not believe that he is unwell or unstable - it's just that his actions are easy for us to look at as unstable because they are through a totally different lens to how we see the world.

This thread from Lavrov's predecessor is the latest saying the same thing...

twitter.com/andreivkozyrev/status/1500610676926005251?s=21[/quote]
I agree with this, very much

He’s a dictatorial expansionist- we’ve seen it before. Out of interest, did Hitler get the ‘he’s gone mad’ thing?

Perhaps our lens has shifted far away from what we’re seeing now - to a positive inclusive approach that trusted Russia, hence the shock and he’s unstable

@JimLaheysWhiskeyBottle

I wasn’t sure if you would all be interested, but I don’t live in the UK but in Norway. Today all children in school or barnehage (nursery) have come home with a permission slip for parents to sign for school to administer iodine medication in the event of a nuclear emergency.

This happened here when the Chernobyl disaster happened, but it did take me by surprise today. I’m a teacher here and all of the schools and barnehages here have received the stock of iodine tablets either last Friday or this morning.

I haven’t been overly concerned so far, but this has shaken me a little. However, the Norwegian government are generally very good at being proactive and preventative and this was apparent during covid too. So I am trying to remember this as it helps keep perspective.

Honestly I wouldn't worry too much, sounds like they're just being very cautious.

Iodine is cheap and getting this all sorted in advance in the tiniest of tiny chances it's needed (more likely due to stupidity on the ground near a nuclear power plant than a purposeful nuclear strike).

By the way - adults don't need to take iodine unless pregnant. It's children and pregnant women only.

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@Natsku

Yes I would feel the same 100%[/quote]
Yeah I really don't believe you. If it was your house being bombed and your way of life being destroyed you'd want the rest of the world doing everything it can to help.

And Russia won't stop at Ukraine if Ukraine gives in. It'll just prove to Putin that he can get what he wants if he threatens enough, just like with all bullies.

It’s better to give in now and although that is devastating for the Ukraine it’s sadly preferable than the whole world being destroyed in a nuclear war.

That's the slippery slope fallacy there.

[quote wheresmymojo]@ThirtyAndfeelingFifty

Have you watched Winter on Fire on Netflix about Ukraine in 2014?

[/quote]
No I haven’t I will though Thankyou

I mean...I've looked up what to do in the event of nuclear fallout drifting over from a power plant strike. I don't think hoping for the best and preparing for the worst is a bad strategy when it comes to these things and the actions to take are quite simple.

For info...

Basically stay inside for as long as possible, at least 48 hours blocking any gaps as much as you can.

If you must go outside (really, don't) then minimise the time outside as much as possible. Dispose of clothes worn and shower on return.

Make sense to have a bit of tinned stuff knocking around in the cupboards so you can stay in for 48 hours or (ideally) longer even if you end up eating weird combos.

Iodine tablets for children and preggos.

@Natsku

So why bother to ask a question where there’s a 50% chance you won’t believe the answer

@hassletassle

*I have seen a list of Ukrainian demands of Russia, it's a joke btw. 1 Russia withdraw from all of Ukraine 2 Putin present himself to the international court of justice 3 Free and fair elections in Russia 4 Russia make full reparations to Ukraine 5 Russia make a plan for eventually joint the EU and NATO 6 Russia change their national language to Ukrainian*

Erm... well.... it's ambitious!!

Could it be so you leave room to concede during negotiations

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@Natsku

So why bother to ask a question where there’s a 50% chance you won’t believe the answer[/quote]
I am going to ask the good faith question.

Suggesting that Zelenskyy just accede to the Russian demands in the face of the violent invasion for "the greater good" is the same as, if not worse than, celebrating Chamberlain's "Peace in our time" 

I can't work out if ThirtyAndfeelingFifty is deluded, naive or being deliberately provocative

Fortunately most people on this thread are more sensible.

I have seen a list of Ukrainian demands of Russia, it's a joke btw.

Its a joke.

Like Russian demands are.

@JimLaheysWhiskeyBottle

I wasn’t sure if you would all be interested, but I don’t live in the UK but in Norway. Today all children in school or barnehage (nursery) have come home with a permission slip for parents to sign for school to administer iodine medication in the event of a nuclear emergency.

This happened here when the Chernobyl disaster happened, but it did take me by surprise today. I’m a teacher here and all of the schools and barnehages here have received the stock of iodine tablets either last Friday or this morning.

I haven’t been overly concerned so far, but this has shaken me a little. However, the Norwegian government are generally very good at being proactive and preventative and this was apparent during covid too. So I am trying to remember this as it helps keep perspective.

I'm in Finland and they've been talking about preparations for nuclear emergency too (no permission slips for iodine though, I think they'd just give them anyway if the need arose. Schools, workplaces, housing associations etc. all have to have iodine for their employees and clients) but also have said that even if there was an explosion at one of the plants in Ukraine it shouldn't bring enough radiation for any major emergency procedures e.g. sheltering indoors so probably no need for iodine either. Would be more of a case of radiation affecting food so levels would need to be monitored/food discarded, and no mushrooms or berries for the next year or so. Norway is even further away so should be even safer, and be glad they are being proactive, better than the opposite!

"I think we should be agreeing to take in as many Ukrainians as necessary actually.

If they have to make the sacrifice then the rest off the works needs to step up and support them in any way. But not fighting and escalating the correct war that’s not the way forward"

I'm sorry I never get the quoting right...

What about those left behind? What about the people living in countries next in line?

By all means we should support everyone we can as much as we can.

But I expect all Ukrainians would want to live in peace in their own free country. Free to come and go as they please. To live where they want and be welcomed everywhere as free people. It is their right.

By the way - adults don't need to take iodine unless pregnant. It's children and pregnant women only.

Its children, pregnant women, and adults under 40, but children and pregnant women take priority as they get the most benefit from it. (it has been in the news over here a lot lately, been bombarded with information!)

[quote ThirtyAndfeelingFifty]@Rheia1983 what would you prefer then ww3?[/quote]
I don't let threats of World War 3 scare me into being willing to offer up other people and their freedom to save my skin.

Ukrainians have just as much a right to live in freedom as I do. If they wish to stand up to a tyrant and insist on their right to freedom I support that unconditionally.

@bappymonday

What is day to day life like for people left in Ukraine? Are they staying home : shelter all day or do they still go to work? Are the shops still open? How do they get supplies? Are the shops being replenished or will they just run out eventually?

Anyone have any insight

*ThirtyAndfeelingFifty I asked the question so that you would perhaps think about it and consider yourself in the position of the Ukrainians and honestly ask yourself if you would be willing to give in to those demands. Because its very easy to say another country should, knowing its not going to affect you.