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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 02/03/2022 20:49

Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

OP posts:
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12
Yeahthat · 03/03/2022 20:16

@Alexandra2001

It's interesting that there are conflicts all over the world - but when the people involved look like us, it means it's WW3

Probably because this one is super power against super power, on our doorstep... nothing to do with "they look like us" thats just stupid.

Be the same if China invaded Taiwan or do they "look like us too?"

We are standing aside as Putin brings in his heavy guns and destroys cities.
How many in Kyiv will leave if there is a humanitarian corridor?

Shameful, all Putin has to do is raise the spectre of Nuclear war and we all run away, might as well unilaterally disarm.

In fact - not on here - but in the wider media; by news presenters and politicians this opinion has been expressed during the past week. Phrases along the lines of "not what you expect to see in Europe", "They have blond hair and blue eyes", "These people drive cars just like ours, they have instagram accounts". I can't remember the specific quotes and can't be bothered looking them up, but an article here covers it:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civilised-european-look-like-us-racist-coverage-ukraine

I find it hard not to see something similar at work in people falsely declaring this a world war.

With regards to, "We may as well unilaterally disarm". We don't have a nuclear arsenal in order to police the rest of the world nor enforce human rights elsewhere. As Barack Obama argued in 2016, we need to be clear about where our read lines are. The reality is that with nuclear weapons, the red line is not Ukraine.

@MarshaBradyo @Lonelycrab

This is why I said something like "To the extent that we're able to determine it." For example, a nation could request to join NATO, it could be refused on the base that it would destabilise a region in which we're committed to detente. It would need to have conditions, such as any military build up against them is accompanied by corresponding measures in support. As you say, they may opt against neutrality anyway. But I do believe that we have to try to analyse how to change structural factors which may reduce the chance of armed conflict.

DrBlackbird · 03/03/2022 20:16

I’m reading that’s there are reports of a temporary cease fire in some areas. Only to allow for civilian evacuations. Maybe the plan is to ultimately take a country devoid of any Ukrainian nationalists as an extreme form of ‘Russification’. This was a policy used in the 1930’s?

AuldAlliance · 03/03/2022 20:22

Fiona Hill, who isn't one to bandy words about, referred to the situation as WW3 in her article. But her definition may differ slightly from Wikipedia's:

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

"We’re already in it. We have been for some time. We keep thinking of World War I, World War II as these huge great big set pieces, but World War II was a consequence of World War I. And we had an interwar period between them. And in a way, we had that again after the Cold War. Many of the things that we’re talking about here have their roots in the carving up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire at the end of World War I. At the end of World War II, we had another reconfiguration and some of the issues that we have been dealing with recently go back to that immediate post-war period. We’ve had war in Syria, which is in part the consequence of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, same with Iraq and Kuwait.

All of the conflicts that we’re seeing have roots in those earlier conflicts. We are already in a hot war over Ukraine, which started in 2014. People shouldn’t delude themselves into thinking that we’re just on the brink of something. We’ve been well and truly in it for quite a long period of time."

Natsku · 03/03/2022 20:24

There's a Ukrainian youth theatre group that came over to Finland to do some theatre just before the invasion so now they are here, while their families are stuck back in Ukraine. They're having to apply for asylum by themselves, some as young as 12, worrying about their families (though I expect their families are just glad that these children are safe at least).

Alexandra2001 · 03/03/2022 20:24

@Yeahthat

I don't believe its a WW but it is will be a genocide.

ChimChimeny · 03/03/2022 20:24

mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1499479882723643400

Russia expected to be under martial law from 4 March

oakleaffy · 03/03/2022 20:25

@Alexandra2001

It's interesting that there are conflicts all over the world - but when the people involved look like us, it means it's WW3

Probably because this one is super power against super power, on our doorstep... nothing to do with "they look like us" thats just stupid.

Be the same if China invaded Taiwan or do they "look like us too?"

We are standing aside as Putin brings in his heavy guns and destroys cities.
How many in Kyiv will leave if there is a humanitarian corridor?

Shameful, all Putin has to do is raise the spectre of Nuclear war and we all run away, might as well unilaterally disarm.

Exactly this. It involves a dangerous superpower, nothing at all to do with “ They look like us”.

That is just absurd.

Gingerwarthog · 03/03/2022 20:27

The Guardian has reported the death of Serge Zevlever who helped hundreds of Ukrainian children with special needs to find loving adoptive families.
He was killed in Kyiv. As he had dual US/Ukrainian nationality he could have escaped but had chosen to stay in the city.
He was described by colleagues as a 'one if a kind' person who would 'fight' for the kids he worked with.

Natsku · 03/03/2022 20:29

Really hope the ceasefire for civilian evacuations happens, and somebody helps the elderly and disabled to escape.

ChimChimeny · 03/03/2022 20:29

@Natsku

Really hope the ceasefire for civilian evacuations happens, and somebody helps the elderly and disabled to escape.
And food and water is Allowed in
ChimChimeny · 03/03/2022 20:31

Almost at the end of another thread, is someone on hand to do the honours please? space for about 40 more.posts

Ijsbear · 03/03/2022 20:32

Oh no. Oh how utterly sad @Gingerwarthog.

I fear that Putin will find it acceptable if he razes cities one by one until Ukraine capitulates. All his life he's been trained and then trained himself further that life is worthless, only power matters.

oakleaffy · 03/03/2022 20:32

@Gingerwarthog

The Guardian has reported the death of Serge Zevlever who helped hundreds of Ukrainian children with special needs to find loving adoptive families. He was killed in Kyiv. As he had dual US/Ukrainian nationality he could have escaped but had chosen to stay in the city. He was described by colleagues as a 'one if a kind' person who would 'fight' for the kids he worked with.
That is so sad. What becomes of those stranded in Institutions ? Hospitals, Orphanages &c, care homes? Who is caring for them, especially with no electricity, water or ways to cook, wash and maintain basic hygiene? Flushing loos of course will not be possible.
DrBlackbird · 03/03/2022 20:34

It is touching and heart warming that ordinary people are doing what they can. I loved the story about people booking Airbnb just so Ukrainians can receive some money.

Natsku · 03/03/2022 20:37

@oakleaffy J.k. Rowling's charity is working to help those stuck in orphanages there. Don't know about who might be helping those in other institutions though.

Natsku · 03/03/2022 20:40

@DrBlackbird

It is touching and heart warming that ordinary people are doing what they can. I loved the story about people booking Airbnb just so Ukrainians can receive some money.
It really makes me feel better about the world that so many people are doing what they can. It was in the news yesterday that a Finnish bus driver is driving his bus down to the border to take supplies and then bring back a bus full of refugees. He's told his local asylum centre so that they can be prepared to take them. And Moldova is amazing, they've taken in so many refugees. And all the countries giving free train and bus travel to Ukrainians and other things like that.
workisnotawolf · 03/03/2022 20:42

www.reuters.com/world/europe/fearing-martial-law-or-conscription-some-russians-try-flee-abroad-2022-03-03/

Can I just ask will we welcome Russian refugees? Political dissidents etc. - those in danger in Russia. And if we go to “war” with Russia what would happen?

ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/COM/380-600050?OpenDocument

Among the enemy aliens in the territory of a Party to a conflict there may be one category whose position warrants special consideration [p.263] -- namely refugees who have been forced by events or by persecution to leave their native land and seek asylum in another country.
When the country in which they have taken refuge is involved in a war with their country of origin, they become enemy aliens, since they are citizens of an enemy Power. Their position, however, is a special one, for they are expatriates who have no longer any connection with their State of origin and do not enjoy the assistance of a Protecting Power. On the other hand, they have not established any permanent connection with the country which has granted them asylum. Consequently they do not enjoy the protection of any government.

DrBlackbird · 03/03/2022 20:44

Article in the Graun by the ED of Human Rights Watch on how current Russian operations in Ukraine are similar to what they did in Syria. The aim is to drive civilians out of the country to isolate Ukrainian army and make it easier for Russian troops to move in.

With Russian ground forces engaged in Ukraine, perhaps the closest analogy to today’s situation was the second war in Chechnya between 1999 and 2000, when Russian forces utterly devastated the capital, Grozny, with an overwhelming display of indiscriminate firepower. In 2003, the United Nations reportedly called Grozny “the most destroyed city on Earth”. Russian forces also perpetrated several massacres, tortured and forcibly disappeared thousands, and engaged in other grave abuses in “mop-up” operations.

elephantmarchingin · 03/03/2022 20:45

Recent from BBC news 'US-Russia hotline set up to prevent 'military incidents' - reports
The Pentagon has set up a new hotline with Russia's ministry of defence to prevent "miscalculation, military incidents and escalation", a US official has told the news agency Reuters.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the US source said a "de-confliction line" was established on 1 March.
The US military has created hotlines with Russia in the past, including during the war in Syria.'

Hopefully this reduces the risk of miscalculated incidents!

Logburning · 03/03/2022 20:46

Is this good news?

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6
vera99 · 03/03/2022 20:47

This mass genocide now.

Sunnierdays · 03/03/2022 20:47

I helped out at a local donation centre today, we went through bags and bags of stuff!! A child’s second hand t shirt which was donated had the words ‘Stay positive people!’ Let’s try and take some advice from that !!

Yeahthat · 03/03/2022 20:47

@elephantmarchingin

That's very positive news.

jgw1 · 03/03/2022 20:48

@workisnotawolf

www.reuters.com/world/europe/fearing-martial-law-or-conscription-some-russians-try-flee-abroad-2022-03-03/

Can I just ask will we welcome Russian refugees? Political dissidents etc. - those in danger in Russia. And if we go to “war” with Russia what would happen?

ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/COM/380-600050?OpenDocument

Among the enemy aliens in the territory of a Party to a conflict there may be one category whose position warrants special consideration [p.263] -- namely refugees who have been forced by events or by persecution to leave their native land and seek asylum in another country.
When the country in which they have taken refuge is involved in a war with their country of origin, they become enemy aliens, since they are citizens of an enemy Power. Their position, however, is a special one, for they are expatriates who have no longer any connection with their State of origin and do not enjoy the assistance of a Protecting Power. On the other hand, they have not established any permanent connection with the country which has granted them asylum. Consequently they do not enjoy the protection of any government.

Of course the UK will. The people of the UK are generous.

The current government, though will probably only welcome those who are rich enough, because they of course are the most deserving.