The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

[quote ClaudineClare]@mybeautifulnewwashingmachine I am not sure what you are trying to say with all your posts and lectures that we are all illinformed.

We know that Ukraine has long standing troubles. Are you of the opinion that the way to end those troubles is for Ukraine to be invaded and its people slaughtered? Because you really do seem to be making excuses for Putin.[/quote]
??? where have I taken any partisan stance?! you post is really offensive, i have nowhere made excuses for anyone.

However, I apologise for calling people uninformed, if I caused offence, I was slightly irritated that what I said was being referred to as fake news (it wasn't).

@parafirstjoint

The co-op has withdrawn the sale of Russian Vodka!

That could be to prevent thy brave but dim deciding to smash them in the shop.

[quote AuldAlliance]bluebellsunderthetrees
Have you read the UN report that article you quoted upthread (on the death rate in Donbass) refers to?
The two don't tally.

The article says this:
According to the UN High Commissioner, when compared to the previous period, there was a 51% increase in Donbass casualties between February 1 and July 31 2021, accounting for 62 killed and wounded civilians. 81% of civilians died from Ukrainian shelling and more than 80% of hits during the reporting period led to destruction.
infobrics.org/post/34477/

The UN report says this:
Thirteen civilian casualties resulted from active hostilities, while 47 resulted from mine-related incidents and handling of explosive remnants of war. In addition, one man was also killed in a security incident and one woman was beaten by a soldier.
ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-11/aPR32_final_ENG.pdf[/quote]
What you are presenting @AuldAlliance are facts. They are generally used by experts, and we as Gove so correctly pointed out live in world where we don't what experts and their facts.

Doesn't seem (with the major caveat that with all the posturing/propaganda/delusion, it's hard to work out what anything "seems" like, let alone actually is) as though Putin plans to give up, regardless of how illogical that position is.

So, a silly question. Let's say Putin manages to take half the country (the "Novorosija" version of how things shake out.) Ukraine is massive. Its 44 million residents could fit into the west half of the country. What (apart from the logistical impossibility/reality of finding new jobs, homes, etc) is to stop the population en masse moving west, leaving behind a deserted land?

Russia is massive squared, and has enormous infrastructure problems - adding land mass without population will make those problems even bigger.

Sorry, rambling post. I just don't know what he thinks is going to happen here - even if he does capture Ukraine, policing it is going to be a vast effort for a long time.

[quote HeadPain]How are the people of Mariupol going to get help before they die. THIS IS THE THIRD DAY WITHOUT WATER.

"There has been no light, no heat, and no water now for two full days and we have hardly any food left," said Maxim, 27, an IT developer who was hiding in his grandparents' apartment on Thursday morning.

"Food and medicine is not moving in Mariupol now. The local government tried to give out bread and water but it is gone," he said. "I filled the bath with water before the water stopped. We have about five litres left."

Maxim left his apartment after the Russian invasion began last week to be with his grandparents, who are in their eighties and cannot leave their sixth-floor, city-centre apartment. The three of them are sheltering with their pets in the hallway of the apartment, with no heating in the depth of winter, hiding from a barrage of shelling.

"The shelling started again at six this morning," Maxim said. "The city was completely black overnight, there was no source of light apart from the explosions. It was quiet for a few hours but then at dawn it started again. We can hear it now from every direction. We are terrified.""

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60601235[/quote]
that is horrendous.

I change names regularly; but there must be AI ways of spotting bots?

@BigHuff

Doesn't seem (with the major caveat that with all the posturing/propaganda/delusion, it's hard to work out what anything "seems" like, let alone actually is) as though Putin plans to give up, regardless of how illogical that position is.

So, a silly question. Let's say Putin manages to take half the country (the "Novorosija" version of how things shake out.) Ukraine is massive. Its 44 million residents could fit into the west half of the country. What (apart from the logistical impossibility/reality of finding new jobs, homes, etc) is to stop the population en masse moving west, leaving behind a deserted land?

Russia is massive squared, and has enormous infrastructure problems - adding land mass without population will make those problems even bigger.

Sorry, rambling post. I just don't know what he thinks is going to happen here - even if he does capture Ukraine, policing it is going to be a vast effort for a long time.

This is what's frightening me as well. The only way to effectively control a hostile population in a vast, damaged area with poor infrastructure is brutality. Extreme, unrelenting brutality. We are at the very beginning of something really fucking terrible here.

Of course there is a visceral fear of nuclear war - it's like someone yelling "Shark!", it hits you in the guts - but I have much more fear for the people in Ukraine, who are heading into a long period of utter hell with nobody prepared to do anything to stop it.

@dahliaaa, I can’t post the actual sheet itself but these are the questions to work through, plus a helpful web link on managing unhelpful thoughts:

I had some therapy for anxiety/depression a year or so ago and saved some useful worksheets. Perhaps have a look at answering these questions, which I've copied, and see if it helps you to reassess things a bit:

1. Situation / Trigger - What happened? Where? When? Who with? How?

1. Feelings Emotions – (Rate 0 – 100%) - What emotion did I feel at that time? What else? How intense was it? What did I notice in my body? Where did I feel it? Body sensations

1. Unhelpful Thoughts / Images - What went through my mind? What disturbed me? What did those houghts/images/memories mean to me, or say about me or the situation? What am I responding to?

What ‘button’ is this pressing for me? What would be the worst thing about that, or that could happen?

1. Facts that support the unhelpful thought - What are the facts? What facts do I have that the unhelpful thought/s are totally true?

1. Facts that provide evidence against the unhelpful thought - What facts do I have that the unhelpful thought/s are NOT totally true? Is it possible that this is opinion, rather than fact? What have others said about this?

1. Alternative, more realistic and balanced perspective - What would someone else say about this situation? What’s the bigger picture? Is there another way of seeing it? What advice would I give someone else? Is my reaction in proportion to the actual event? Is this really as important as it seems?

1. Outcome Re-rate emotion - What am I feeling now? (0-100%) What could I do differently? What would be more effective? Do what works! Act wisely. What will be most helpful for me or the situation? What will the consequences be?

Also have a look at this website which discusses unhelpful thinking habits like catastrophizing: www.getselfhelp.co.uk/unhelpful.htm

@ClaudineClare

I understand that Wales intends on starting a civil war in Patagonia as there is quite a large population of Welsh speakers there

We intend settling matters by jousting with giant leeks.

lol!

There's talk now about humanitarian corridors, hopefully

@MumbleCrumbs

Zelenskyy made an interesting point earlier that I hadn't considered. The Russian soldiers themselves are transporting mobile crematoria into Ukraine. Putin is literally having these boys carry the means of disposing their own dead bodies into war with them. I can't understand why there isn't mass dissent/revolution. Surely they are aware of what they are for? It is monstrous. This entire thing is the most monstrous thing I've ever seen. I can barely sleep.

How I feel too. Also sending men so young they are little more than boys, to risk death, to murder women and children, for what ? For a “win”. Putin has everything he could want, more money than anyone could ever need. He must be a dark bottomless pit of emptiness.

[quote AuldAlliance]bluebellsunderthetrees
Have you read the UN report that article you quoted upthread (on the death rate in Donbass) refers to?
The two don't tally.

The article says this:
According to the UN High Commissioner, when compared to the previous period, there was a 51% increase in Donbass casualties between February 1 and July 31 2021, accounting for 62 killed and wounded civilians. 81% of civilians died from Ukrainian shelling and more than 80% of hits during the reporting period led to destruction.
infobrics.org/post/34477/

The UN report says this:
Thirteen civilian casualties resulted from active hostilities, while 47 resulted from mine-related incidents and handling of explosive remnants of war. In addition, one man was also killed in a security incident and one woman was beaten by a soldier.
ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-11/aPR32_final_ENG.pdf[/quote]
The report does say exactly what the article says. See page 7 Right above the paragraph you are quoting. What is with everyone defending or trying to deny that Ukraine did this?

27. From 1 February to 31 July 2021, OHCHR recorded 62 civilian casualties: 15 killed (11 men, three boys and one girl) and 47 injured (30 men, 13 women, three boys and one girl), a 51 per cent increase compared with the preceding six months (41 civilian casualties – eight killed and 33 injured).

Praying this is true. I know its not huge but much more progress than I was hoping for from these talks.

@mybeautifulnewwashingmachine OK, I was trying to understand your angle. I am still not sure what it is, but we seem to at least agree that Putin's criminal invasion is indefensible to say the least.

The Russian soldiers themselves are transporting mobile crematoria into Ukraine

I wonder if the numbers of Russian dead will ever be accurately known then? Im sure the West will never know, but even the Russian govt might not get accurate statistics.

I so hope that's right @tuba437. I'd have more confidence if Putin wasn't such a psychotic lying little shit.

There have been theroies that many eastern Europe countries have been locked under the wicked and evil socialists Soviet yolke that they were simply not used to diversity. And I strongly suspect it's not backed up with public information programs either!

I posted on the other thread, my friend experience of rural Chinese mostly... looking like princess Diana. She's about 6ft tall, blondes with sticking blue eye's.

She's been spat at, physically shoved... people crossing the the street too avoid her and ranting at her among others. but..also random stroking! Touching in "awe"... gasping in awe... and asking for photos!!
My own blonde DC were asked numerous time's for photos by Chinese people When at cultural monuments around the world.

bluebellsunderthetrees

The UN confirms, in case anyone still had any lingering doubts on that score, that there were breaches of human rights by the Ukrainian government, by the self-proclaimed republics and by the Russian government, as well as by a whole range of unnamed/unidentified individuals.

But unless you consider that "Ukrainian shelling" and "mine-related incidents and handling of explosive remnants of war" are synonymous, the report and that article do not say the same thing.

From the BBC

Ukrainian negotiator Mykhailo Podolyak says the sides have reached an understanding on "jointly securing humanitarian corridors to evacuate peaceful civilians, and also on supplying medicine and food to the places of the most fierce fighting"

He adds there is a possibility, "I stress, with a possibility of a temporary ceasefire for the evacuation period in certain sectors"

What do they mean by "peaceful civilians"? and why have they made that distinction? Obviously anyone who wants to stay and fight won't be looking to be evacuated.

I'm not defending or denying anything. I compared the summary in the article and the UN report and noted that while the figures are the same, the UN does not ascribe the deaths to the cause clearly mentioned in the article.

Can I ask a question, does anyone think we’ll implement a no fly zone? Or intervene in another way? So many people on Twitter seem to be calling for this, including Piers Morgan it seems!
To me it would be a catastrophic decision and would possibly end in nuclear war.
I want my child to grow up and have a future, sorry if that’s selfish but I don’t think world war three with Russia is the best idea…especially when they have nukes.

NATSKU and others- there are many nuclear plants in Ukraine. All it would take is an accidental rocket hit for a nightmare scenario that could affect all of Europe

[quote katem98]@holliem91 I also have young children and feel guilty giving them life. Not sleeping and have lost a whole stone in weight since last week. It's just bloody awful and I'm heartbroken for the whole world. Who would've thought that this would be happening in 2022 after the recent Covid shitshow.

One thing that has been comforting is that every time someone posts something on this thread that is comforting and reassuring, I screenshot it and look back on them when I'm feeling anxious. [/quote]
@katem98:

Don't feel guilty about giving them life. The opposite, feel determined to raise them as decent, caring, thoughtful human beings - adding to the numbers of decent, caring, thoughtful human beings around the world. And be grateful that you are able to bring them up in an environment where we are, here in the UK, still very far away from the horror on our screens.

If you weren't giving them life, you would be leaving the world to those people who don't care like you do, and who will try and get their children not to care. What are Putin's grandchildren likely being brought up on? Are they the only children we want in the world? We need the youthful energy of the next generation. If they are being obliterated in Ukraine, at least yours do have a future and do have hope. I very much doubt than any mother in Ukraine would be wanting you not to give life to your children in support of hers. The opposite of death is life, not more death. And there is something rewarding (although scary) seeing one's children grow up to campaign for human rights with all the passion of the young (I have a DS who has been doing that for the last couple of years, although nothing to do with Russia/Ukraine, about which I have discovered I know relatively little, even though an elderly great-great grandfather died in Ukraine after the whole family were put on trains to Siberia by the Russians fighting WW1, and so they buried him somewhere near the railtracks probably somewhere near where all the fighting is today).

Btw and this shows my ignorance of the area - what is the issue with "the" versus just Ukraine. Some part of me keeps wanting to write "the Ukraine" - but it seems from some of the posters on her, that would make me likely a bot. Why is that? And why do I keep wanting to do it?

@Logburning

Can I ask a question, does anyone think we’ll implement a no fly zone? Or intervene in another way? So many people on Twitter seem to be calling for this, including Piers Morgan it seems! To me it would be a catastrophic decision and would possibly end in nuclear war. I want my child to grow up and have a future, sorry if that’s selfish but I don’t think world war three with Russia is the best idea…especially when they have nukes.

We won't get involved. As long as it stays contained, which I'm sure it will. Piers Morgan is just jumping on the bandwagon.