The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

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Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

I’ve found the FT coverage really good actually.
And I know the Russian foreign minister could be lying through his teeth about nuclear war shouldn’t be waged but I’m choosing to remain hopeful that he means it. Doesn’t mean Putin agrees but I’m hopeful it’s a positive sign!

Sorry to jump on this thread but I’m really scared about all this and read earlier that Putin has moved his family to a bunker in case of nuclear attack. Do we think this is true? Does it mean he has plans upcoming in that respect? I’m terrified.

I just read Ukrainians have captured some sort of roclet lsuncher from the Russisms. And that Pakistan is going to aid Russia. What next.

@Logburning

Sorry to jump on this thread but I’m really scared about all this and read earlier that Putin has moved his family to a bunker in case of nuclear attack. Do we think this is true? Does it mean he has plans upcoming in that respect? I’m terrified.

Absolutely every single expert I've seen talk about this is saying it's not a real threat and not to get too caught up giving it headspace if you can manage it.

Putin is likely paranoid - he's spent 2 years being terrified of Covid apparently. He doesn't want to die. So if he's moved his family it will be because he's convincing himself he might get attacked. He thinks we're all out to get him. It's not necessarily anything to do with the fact he's more likely to attack us now.

I know there are no guarantees but it is extremely extremely unlikely there will be a nuclear attack. Try not to allow the media to convince you otherwise - they know the more scared you are, the more you'll click on their stories about this.

@anotherperson1.
No it wasn't

Place marking

Surely putin lives at the Kremlin, which has a bunker? Makes sense to be in it if you're attacking people.

Unless you mean they have gone to the urals?

@Logburning

Sorry to jump on this thread but I’m really scared about all this and read earlier that Putin has moved his family to a bunker in case of nuclear attack. Do we think this is true? Does it mean he has plans upcoming in that respect? I’m terrified.

I really don’t find this any reason to worry.

Can be an outright lie to fuel a fear campaign - working with you now, right? So perfectly logical lie.

Could be they’re in a safe place. Of course they are. Now if you were going to build a safe place, would you build one for regular bombs, one for nuclear and one for - I don’t know, flooding?! Of course you’d have one super safe place. So sending your family there doesn’t mean it’s needed for nuclear purposes.

@Logburning

Sorry to jump on this thread but I’m really scared about all this and read earlier that Putin has moved his family to a bunker in case of nuclear attack. Do we think this is true? Does it mean he has plans upcoming in that respect? I’m terrified.

Where did you read that @logburner? Do you have a link? The Ukranian journalist who confronted Johnson earler said that Putin’s children are in the Netherlands and Germany.

Here @ClaudineClare

www.google.com/amp/s/www.news.com.au/world/europe/putin-hides-family-in-secret-siberian-underground-bunker/news-story/2c69b05e80331b3504f7ed726be75494%3famp

@Logburning

Sorry to jump on this thread but I’m really scared about all this and read earlier that Putin has moved his family to a bunker in case of nuclear attack. Do we think this is true? Does it mean he has plans upcoming in that respect? I’m terrified.

I've replied to this on your other thread, too, but the only person positing this theory is a professor who is a conspiracy theorist and has also said that Putin and his Defence Minister conduct shamanic rituals together. I wouldn't take it as gospel. It's also only been published in the likes of the Daily Mail, Express etc. Basically only the publications that have never let responsible journalism get in the way of a good clickbait-y headline. Good propaganda for Putin, though, what better way for him to show how "worried" he is by the purported threat from Nato - that demanded he upped the alert level on his nuclear forces - than to hide his family away...?

The chance of a nuclear war is never zero, it's both because and why we have them. It might be higher now than it was last week, but it's still unlikely. Putin shouldn't be underestimated, and if anyone in the world right now was going to launch one then my money would probably be on him, but it's still not a likely outcome. There's a longstanding tradition of non-use of nuclear weapons and checks and balances in place that have saved the world a nuclear situation in the past and hopefully will again if we're ever in that position.

No one can tell you not to be worried. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit worried, but it's also outwith our control. Enjoy your life, step away from sensationalist news.

[quote OnlyOpenMouthToChangeFeet]Here @ClaudineClare

www.google.com/amp/s/www.news.com.au/world/europe/putin-hides-family-in-secret-siberian-underground-bunker/news-story/2c69b05e80331b3504f7ed726be75494%3famp[/quote]
The academic has previously alleged Putin has medical problems hidden from the Russian public, and also claimed that the strongman and his defence minister Sergei Shoigu have taken part in bizarre secret shamanic rituals

So a very reliable source then? 🙄

Amnesty International’s Crisis Evidence Lab analyzed digital evidence — including photos, videos and satellite imagery of indiscriminate attacks in #Ukraine. They have verified violations of international law which could amount to war crimes.
twitter.com/amnesty/status/1498710993391828994?t=QMT2viEfWIAEgZOFa9d2Qg&s=19

@ClaudineClare

Ukraine is also part of an information and propaganda war as much as Russia. They want us to escalate the situation by imposing a no fly zone and therefore risk being drawn into war with Russia.

It's not rational for us to do so.

As much as we all condemn Putin's actions and want to support Ukraine, I don't think that anyone is truly willing to risk nuclear war in order to do so. Frankly, I'd be terrified if this option was on the table. We must focus on deescalation.

@Logburning I am absolutely petrified too. I haven't read what you have though. A lot of comments on these threads have been really
helpful/reassuring which is what I need right now but some have been terrifying.

I keep telling myself if NATO get involved its game over. I keep seeing pressure for NATO to close the skies and whilst I want to do what we can to help Ukraine I'm terrified we will start a nuclear war.

I know this is a completely different scenario but the government don't deal well with pressure - as proven with Covid.

www.france24.com/en/20200121-sergei-lavrov-the-inscrutable-face-of-russian-diplomacy

“Asked once what it takes to be a diplomat, Lavrov said the key qualities were being "erudite" and having a good knowledge of history.

He added it was important to be devoted to one's "motherland" and to understand the psychology of the negotiator across the table.”

Interesting article on Sergei Lavrov, do we believe what he says regarding nuclear? Given they all lie through their teeth to discombobulate?

My personal opinion is that we should believe that Putin wants to be in control and does not follow or trust anyone 100 per cent, so if this war is throwing lots of different decisions at him at the same time, none of which are a substantial attack but all of which are confusing as a whole, that has got to be a good strategy.

I am half expecting an announcement that Putin has been taken ill. X is now standing in for him, wish him a speedy recovery blah blah blah. The Special Operation is now at an end. Everyone can now go home, nothing to see here etc etc.

The next time we see Putin is at his state funeral.

I live in hope!

Does anyone know China’s stance on this? Maybe they can put the pressure on Putin and encourage him in peace talks/no more nuclear threats.

@StormzyinaTCup

Thank you for the new thread.

Anyone else thinking there could be a Russian uprising brewing behind the scenes?

This was my hope but I’ve just watched a documentary about Putin today (made a few years back, it’s on channel 4) and I don’t have high hopes for this. The worst thing in his mind is a traitor so anybody that would go against the regime would at best be imprisoned but probably killed. Anybody who speaks up against him, including very rich and powerful oligarchs, would be very brave indeed, unless they are certain they can topple him. As we have seen time and time again even in a foreign country you are not safe from him so I don’t blame the likes of Abramovich. I can see why the Ukrainians are desperately fighting for their country. It breaks my heart that we can not do anything to help them when they do want to be European. My heart also bleeds for the Russian mothers who are going to lose their sons. He really has no respect for human life, including those from his own country.

We don’t even know what would happen if he was ousted out. There’s so much corruption in the police and secret services I don’t think it would be an easy transfer to democracy. Then you’ve got all the different regions like Chechnya and Dagestan and trying to hold them together and stop war with them.

Is MN going to become a seething hotbed of misinformation à la Covid and the vaccines? I really hope not.

[quote holliem91]@Logburning I am absolutely petrified too. I haven't read what you have though. A lot of comments on these threads have been really
helpful/reassuring which is what I need right now but some have been terrifying.

I keep telling myself if NATO get involved its game over. I keep seeing pressure for NATO to close the skies and whilst I want to do what we can to help Ukraine I'm terrified we will start a nuclear war.

I know this is a completely different scenario but the government don't deal well with pressure - as proven with Covid. [/quote]
NATO thus far have been pretty clear that enforcing no-fly zones isn't something they are countenancing. Whatever you think of Putin's appetite for nuclear destruction, the NATO leaders have children, families, lives of their own. I can't imagine any of them want to trigger a nuclear suicide mission.

Hlglu56 what is the documentary called, please? Sounds as though it is worth a watch.

@ClaudineClare

Is MN going to become a seething hotbed of misinformation à la Covid and the vaccines? I really hope not.

It didn't, any disinformation about the vaccines was swiftly jumped on by posters. Genuine concern eg if someone was pregnant, was not. Do not conflate concern (or not agreeing with your viewpoint) and disinformation.

A nuclear attack is unlikely however accidental damage to a Ukrainian nuclear reactor or waste storage site during bombing is credible. The IAEA is putting out press releases on a daily basis at the moment that make for interesting reading www.iaea.org/news

@Yeahthat
Pre invasion i argued on here that Ukraine should adopt a non nato stance, i was reminded that its up to the Ukrainians.... my reply was
they will end up with nothing at all if there is war.

I still believe this, the Soviets (they aren't Russians) will not stop they will want Kyiv to Crimea (at least)
I want to believe in a cease fire and things return to some normality but both side would just use it to re group before fighting again.

Sky is reporting (via ukrainian intel so yet to confirm) 300 tanks on Belarus border, when they attack, what will we do? i think nothing at all, we are weak and they know it, they threaten us with a bomb and we will allow Putin to take Ukraine and then what? Poland & Latvia? he is 70, 5 years from now, with a better military, he may well be back.

All he has to do is wave Nuclear war about and we will all stand down.

Now some of this may be down to Biden, he has sent just 7000 extra troops, its a pathetic response that does not match the severity of the crisis.
& Europe hasn't the military to go against Putin.

I think as another PP said, Russia will curve up Ukraine and we will all move on to the next crisis.