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The invasion continues - Thread No.4

999 replies

ChimChimeny · 28/02/2022 17:48

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Notonthestairs · 28/02/2022 18:30

Thanks TheSillyMastiff - your post is very interesting.

DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 18:30

BBC live blog

Biden holds call with Western leaders
We've just learned that US President Joe Biden has held a call with allies to discuss Russia's war on Ukraine.

Joining the call were Canada's PM Justin Trudeau, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, European Council President Charles Michel, French President Emmanuel Macron, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Italian PM Mario Draghi, Japan's PM Fumio Kishida, Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, Poland's President Andrzej Duda, Romanian President Klaus Iohannis and UK PM Boris Johnson.

We'll bring you more details from the call as we get them.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 18:32

[quote NCdBcOuting]**@RedToothBrush really interesting analysis, thank you for taking the time to set it out.

Do you think Putin is wholly conviction driven, then, as the “posted in error” article sets out? It crossed my mind that the “error” might have been some sort of tactic to gain negotiating advantage, like “oh look he really is nuts let’s placate”. But seeing your explanation makes me think it’s more straightforward - he is a zealot.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx also interesting about the gold, thank you.[/quote]
Its to justify anything that Russia has done as somehow righteous.

As a general note, everything you here said by Russian officials, British officials, Ukrainians officials etc you should think about how it will sound to various different audiences.

Putin and Russian officials might sound crazy to our ears, but it makes perfect sense to a Russian audience. Its hard to get your head around at first (I had a very strange experience travelling in Serbia and came across this type of upside down thinking) but it does make sense when you understand where it comes from and why people are doing it.

Putin isn't crazy, but it actually helps his international positioning on this, if the West believe he is because that increases The Fear. He is talking the language that many Russians understand and is tapping into their identity, fears and prejudices. (In just the same way we've seen used in British political campaigning)

Also I don't think Putin says things he is not prepared to do. It doesn't mean he will. It is not a bluff. Its a statement of possible intention. Dictators don't tend to bluff. He wants people to back down, before he is 'forced' to do something because thats how he psychologically defends his actions. So we should take seriously and tread carefully, but it doesn't mean he wants to see these actions though.

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 18:35

@Notonthestairs

Thanks TheSillyMastiff - your post is very interesting.
I spent far too long in military quarters helping the late Mr Silly Mastiff revise anti tank material with flash cards and literature because he was dyslexic. I know you have to hit it from the top where the armour is thinner, I can also spot by sight a T-90 and T-72 tank and others by their appearance, tracks, turret shape 🤣 my brain seems to not be able to discard this information.
nottoday3000 · 28/02/2022 18:35

As if it can't get worse those poor children in the hospital basement honestly what a truly evil bastard putin is what does it mean for the Ukrainians to join the EU does that mean they will be part of NATO ?

Motherdare · 28/02/2022 18:36

I want to join this thread but I’m worried it’s going to terrify the shit out of me like most of the threads over the weekend did.

I’m worried that increasingly harsh sanctions and inflammatory language just make the situation worse. How can he back down in the face of total opposition? He has too much ego. I’m worried we’re backing him into a corner.

Someone please reassure me why I’m wrong? 🙏

Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 18:38

Red Toothbrush
Doublethink?
Orwell knew where he was talking about.

Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 18:39

@nottoday3000

As if it can't get worse those poor children in the hospital basement honestly what a truly evil bastard putin is what does it mean for the Ukrainians to join the EU does that mean they will be part of NATO ?
No. Too separate things not
Roussette · 28/02/2022 18:39

At last...

here

FIFA/UEFA suspend Russian clubs and national teams from all competitions

nottoday3000 · 28/02/2022 18:41

Thanks@Gingerwarthog I am too tired too google x

workisnotawolf · 28/02/2022 18:41

www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis/story/russia-ukraine-war-news-saint-vladimir-religious-angle-invasion-ukraine-1917721-2022-02-25
Or unherd.com/2022/02/putins-spiritual-destiny/
The religious angle of Ukraine’s invasion hasn’t been discussed yet on these threads.
Could there be something in this?

Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 18:42

[quote nottoday3000]Thanks@Gingerwarthog I am too tired too google x [/quote]
No worries! I have list the ability to spell two!

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 18:44

@Gingerwarthog

Red Toothbrush Doublethink? Orwell knew where he was talking about.
www.bbc.com/future/article/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth How liars create the ‘illusion of truth’

Repetition makes a fact seem more true, regardless of whether it is or not. Understanding this effect can help you avoid falling for propaganda, says psychologist Tom Stafford.

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels. Among psychologists something like this known as the "illusion of truth" effect. Here's how a typical experiment on the effect works: participants rate how true trivia items are, things like "A prune is a dried plum". Sometimes these items are true (like that one), but sometimes participants see a parallel version which isn't true (something like "A date is a dried plum").

After a break – of minutes or even weeks – the participants do the procedure again, but this time some of the items they rate are new, and some they saw before in the first phase. The key finding is that people tend to rate items they've seen before as more likely to be true, regardless of whether they are true or not, and seemingly for the sole reason that they are more familiar.

Tigersonvaseline · 28/02/2022 18:44

Thanks the silly mastiff.

Well the poor Russian people fighting the enemies outside whilst allowing the enemy within??

The horrors of wicked evil bastard's, Lenin, Stalin just like the tsars with no respect at all for the sanctity of life, just like chairman Mao and the list goes on.

And now Putin. apparently he's penciled in that he's happy too loose 50 thousand troops to this.Sad

C8H10N4O2 · 28/02/2022 18:45

@ChimChimeny yes that thread filled up fast! Possibly because its one of the few with actual content as opposed to "PANIC!!!! We will all die" and grief vulture threads.

Could ask HQ to tweak the titles and link them possibly? I quite like the unifying names some long running threads have (such as Westminstenders) but that is largely personal preference.

Gingerwarthog · 28/02/2022 18:47

Thanks Red.
Really interesting.

Fangdango · 28/02/2022 18:47

@nottoday3000

As if it can't get worse those poor children in the hospital basement honestly what a truly evil bastard putin is what does it mean for the Ukrainians to join the EU does that mean they will be part of NATO ?
Joining EU wouldn't mean being in NATO, but the proposal is a good way to push the narrative about Ukraine as a peace-loving, European nation. If granted would also be useful for reconstruction, refugees, intelligence. The EU looks a little closer to military power after the last few days, and the commission has suggested that membership might be on the table for Russia - Ukraine negotiations. I read that as Russia might agree to EU but not NATO membership, eventually.

I'm sure there must be other explanations though.

Thanks v much for new thread.

LetsGoDoDoDo · 28/02/2022 18:47

.

WhathaveIdoneagain · 28/02/2022 18:49

Sorry I am a bit behind with the thread.

I assumed that the denazification by Putin referred to the restrictive language law. Minorities such as Russians and Hungarians have been upset by it. (I do not know about the Romanians and Moldovans, sorry.)

StormzyinaTCup · 28/02/2022 18:55

Thank you for the new thread OP.

Is anyone watching sky news at the mo? Did I hear right that the Russian convoy into Kyiv has increased from three miles long to seventeen miles long😮. Hoping I misheard. Those poor people.

What an evil man.

IBelieveInAThingCalledScience · 28/02/2022 18:55

I never thought I'd see the end of Swiss neutrality!

Amazing.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 18:56

@workisnotawolf

www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis/story/russia-ukraine-war-news-saint-vladimir-religious-angle-invasion-ukraine-1917721-2022-02-25 Or unherd.com/2022/02/putins-spiritual-destiny/ The religious angle of Ukraine’s invasion hasn’t been discussed yet on these threads. Could there be something in this?
Absolutely.

Hitler did the same. Lots of examples in dictators. You don't have to look past North Korea to see another modern day one.

Its a messiah complex. A belief in divine destiny. He probably believes this shit. You also cannot question someone who is blessed by god in this way otherwise you are heretic.

Its an appeal to the idea of a righteous cause. A manufactured moral cause (remember his war lacks a clear moral cause for Russia).

Interestingly the Russian state has been making a point that anyone who questions the war is against the state and is a traitor. Its a stepping up of language (and punishment no doubt) but its also a sign of a weakness to feel it necessary to do this.

TheCaddieisaBaddie · 28/02/2022 18:57

I've even out most of today so these threads are great to catch up

Ncwinc · 28/02/2022 18:57

I know. FIFA drawing the line, Switzerland taking a moral stand. What next?

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 18:58

@Tigersonvaseline

Thanks the silly mastiff.

Well the poor Russian people fighting the enemies outside whilst allowing the enemy within??

The horrors of wicked evil bastard's, Lenin, Stalin just like the tsars with no respect at all for the sanctity of life, just like chairman Mao and the list goes on.

And now Putin. apparently he's penciled in that he's happy too loose 50 thousand troops to this.Sad

There are no winners in war for the men on the ground.

Young men sent to die in this case regarding Russia. 50,000 sons, brothers, fathers lost for what? A land grab and political gain.

I genuinely do feel sympathy and compassion for the Russian men's families, many of which didn't even know their sons were in Ukraine. If you see the images of the "captured soldiers" a significant portion look to be 18-21.

These boys/men don't make the rules, nothing but pawns for men in suits to shuffle about on a war board.

It's one thing to enter a conflict, fully briefed, with full understanding of what is expected of you, compared to being lied to about a "excercise" and a "operation".

Swipe left for the next trending thread