The Invasion Continues...

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Thread two as thread one is complete...

The Professor Freedman article is hopeful. Thank you for the link. It also outlines why - if the Government has to get out of Kyiv and relocate - it does not mean the Russians have won the war.
He made the point on BBC news that urban warfare against a mobilised population is extremely difficult.

@User1isnotavailable

Do the Russian people have no backbone, do they support their leader? I would assume they support Putin because they carry on whist he invades another country.

Putin is one man. One man. Do the people of Russia support him. It appears they do since the whole country could if they chose to do something. They sit silently whilst their country invades another, killing innocent people.

Russian people should be ashamed of their country. More sanctions, more condemnation of their actions until they realise that what Putin is doing is either in their names or not.

This rhetoric is not particularly helpful. We in the UK have sat by and watched helplessly as the Tories have decimated our country for years, and we live in a democracy where protest is allowed. There is only so much that protest can achieve.

I've just watched the news - heartbreaking.

@MarshaBradyo

We are putting in weapons?

Well we (UK) certainly were prior to the invasion (mainly anti tank weapons) and there is obviously intent for NATO to continue to supply munitions, especially given the German announcement in the last few hours).

Presumably it is NATO logistics that gets the stuff to (for example) the the Polish/Ukrainian border and then they get taken further East towards the front(s) by the locals.

TBH with regard to that R4 comment I’d be very surprised if ATM Russian attack helicopters were operating so far west over the Ukraine that they could monitor those borders or crossing points…

There was a meeting yesterday iirc covering lethal aid iirc that’s what it’s called, so there have been shipments and now more to come

This rhetoric is not particularly helpful. We in the UK have sat by and watched helplessly as the Tories have decimated our country for years, and we live in a democracy where protest is allowed. There is only so much that protest can achieve.

Yes. We have the same problem with the DUP pretending they speak for the 'people of NI' when they represent 17% and unionists are now in a minority. But they are given the media and the airtime no matter how much we protest. It is an impossible task when the few in power decide things for us,

@FatFredsFriedEgg

R4 was saying that Russian attack helicoptors are patrolling the borders for the very scenario in which we try to truck in weapons.

It's a very large country with a lot of border. The resistance in France etc. were supplied despite being under full occupation.

Despite being exceptionally brave and courageous people, i don't think anyone in the french resistance believe they would have defeated the Nazi's by themselves. Look also at the retribution as well, just one of many terrible things a occupying force will do en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

If there is on going war in Ukraine, most people who can, will leave, thats millions of people.

I don't think some people are really thinking this through, we need to stop Putin now.

Where are the nice people of Russia. Any on here. What do you have to say about your leader and the actions of YOUR country

Is this for real? Living in a country where you can access the internet to call your leader a cunt, if you so choose, whilst knowing you won't be disappeared never to be seen again it's incredibly ignorant to demand Russian people put themselves in danger

@MarshaBradyo

There was a meeting yesterday iirc covering lethal aid iirc that’s what it’s called, so there have been shipments and now more to come

....again, R4 said the stuff has yet to be sourced, boxed, flown in, after the permissions sought (believe it or not pre brexit it wasn't a problem), trucked to border, handed over......

There’s already weapons that have gone and more to go

The idea were not supplying seems to be off base

Call me a cynic but I don’t believe a word China puts on the public stage. They will say one thing and be doing another. I’m absolutely sure they’ll be aiding this war in some way.

One of the few things you can rely on is China's preference for stability and pragmatism. The chaos and unpredictability of war holds little appeal for China. The notion being touted in Western media that China is gearing up for an all out assault on Taiwan is also silly scaremongering nonsense. US type shock and awe assaults and damn the consequences/collateral fallout campaigns is US style , not China. China will play the long game re.Taiwan and would probably settle for an endgame of it as a neutral player in the region.

Despite being exceptionally brave and courageous people, i don't think anyone in the french resistance believe they would have defeated the Nazi's by themselves.

Did I suggest that they thought that?? They were supplied by allied forces (the UK, as it happens). I don't understand what you think you're saying in your post.

I was just expanding on the point that Russia can't cover every mile of the Ukraine border with NATO, particularly when they've seemingly not fully occupied the country yet, nor have full control of its airspace.

I've no idea what point you were trying to make.

@MarshaBradyo

There’s already weapons that have gone and more to go

The idea were not supplying seems to be off base

Pre or post invasion?

The Prime Minister said:

“In light of the increasingly threatening behaviour from Russia, and in line with our previous support, the UK will shortly be providing a further package of military support to Ukraine. This will include lethal aid in the form of defensive weapons and non-lethal aid.”

This was 2 days ago.

FatFredsFriedEgg

You seemed to be saying we could keep supply the Ukrainians for an on going resistance campaign.

Apologies' if thats not what you meant & i misunderstood.

Weapons have already been sent and more to go, so both

@Alexandra2001

..again, R4 said the stuff has yet to be sourced, boxed, flown in, after the permissions sought (believe it or not pre brexit it wasn't a problem), trucked to border, handed over

There has to be more to it than that…is this by any chance some new “stuff”.

The UK and other countries were certainly shipping munitions (in the UKs case mainly anti-tank weapons such as MLAW) several weeks ago and also sent trainers who were withdrawn before the conflict began…

Maybe now there is an actual conflict to continue shipping the paperwork has to be different because the UK is now supplying an active combatant but hardware has been going there for weeks.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/17/uk-supplying-ukraine-with-anti-tank-weapons-mps-told

www.forbes.com/sites/annakaplan/2022/02/12/us-uk-pull-military-trainers-out-of-ukraine-with-russian-attack-possible-any-day-now/?sh=29d7ad86155d

@FatFredsFriedEgg

anyway, i'll ask again, why is the Russian Ambassador still here?

Because he's spoiling us?

that was brilliant

@Alexandra2001 there's a summary of UK and US military support to Ukraine in this House of Commons briefing paper:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07135/SN07135.pdf

It significantly predates this week's events.

Bluntly, I think it's still too little and too late. NATO should have had troops on the ground in Ukraine months ago, to act as a meaningful deterrant. But that ship has sailed...

[quote Motorina]@Alexandra2001 there's a summary of UK and US military support to Ukraine in this House of Commons briefing paper:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07135/SN07135.pdf

It significantly predates this week's events.

Bluntly, I think it's still too little and too late. NATO should have had troops on the ground in Ukraine months ago, to act as a meaningful deterrant. But that ship has sailed...[/quote]
Couldn’t agree with you more

NATO should have had troops on the ground in Ukraine months ago, to act as a meaningful deterrant. But that ship has sailed...

Do you think that would deter or provoke?

@Alexandra2001

FatFredsFriedEgg

You seemed to be saying we could keep supply the Ukrainians for an on going resistance campaign.

Apologies' if thats not what you meant & i misunderstood.

Yes, that's exactly what's being proposed.

See the first article here: www.forces.net/ukraine/news/uk-among-countries-continuing-military-aid-ukraine-fight-russia

Mr Heappey disclosed that the Ministry of Defence was working on plans to support a resistance movement and a government in exile if Ukraine was finally overrun.

@MarshaBradyo

NATO should have had troops on the ground in Ukraine months ago, to act as a meaningful deterrant. But that ship has sailed...

Do you think that would deter or provoke?

We'd better hope like hell it would have deterred, because right now that's the only deterrent we've got standing between Putin and the Baltic States.

It’s a difficult one as the West has been seen as a threat through its actions in Ukraine by Putin

And even on here you see posts sympathetic to that view, unfortunately.

So actually putting troops in may had been more of a red rag

@MarshaBradyo I absolutely get that that is a possibility. Unfortunately, if that's the case, I see no way forward that doesn't lead to direct military conflict with Russia. The reality is Putin clearly wants to regain other former USSR territories, and Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania must be high on that list. Possibly Poland, too. If we do nothing, as we did after Crimea, he's going to feel empowered to do so. If escalation is a red rag (and I get that it might be) then what other options are there that avoid all out war?

@TheVanguardSix

If China can help resolve this I’ll be grateful and relieved

China will be Russia’s cavalry coming over the hill once those western sanctions hit.

I'm not entirely sure about this (although who knows what they are really thinking/doing) My reasoning is that China has positioned itself as a great production and exporting nation and Western Europe is a big market.

I could see them swinging well away from Russia under the right circumstances. They are hardly easy bedfellows naturally and although China will of course pursue its own interests, hard to see at the moment where those will really lie.