No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

To be honest I'm fed up of getting job applications from people with degrees who can't do basic maths or write properly. It makes the degree meaningless. However if there is a disability or ND factor in the mix then allowances should be made to allow them to pass the required GCSEs.

Student numbers do need to be controlled though. We have too many graduates and not enough skilled labour. Higher education has become an absolute racket. Convincing young people that a degree in some Mickey Mouse subject, which will saddle them with £30k of debt, instead of doing a vocational course or apprenticeship for jobs we're crying out for.

I think it’s fair. The England and Wales education system specialises far too early anyway, and maths and English to GCSE are fairly basic requirements in terms of being general stepping stones to further or higher education pathways that need maths or an ability to read, wrote and synthesise information.

Not the way I would want to control or restrict university numbers. However I do think both are important, I would argue the two most important academic qualifications.

I'd like fewer exams at 16 but keep those two. I know someone who went to university at 19, because they needed maths and did not pass until their fourth attempt.

I’m surprised that many degrees allow entry from people who failed maths or English GCSE.

I am due to graduate this year

I left school with no gcses not because i couldnt do it but because i went off the rails

I do however have good english and maths skills

I resat my gcse maths last year and will do english next year

@SickAndTiredAgain

I’m surprised that many degrees allow entry from people who failed maths or English GCSE.

Same here. I thought it would be a requirement for most degree courses.

My husband failed maths and had to retake it to get into a levels & uni. He has a degree in a field relevant to his work and is now out earning me for the first time! (I did maths and further maths A-levels). His maths still isn’t great, but he knows how to use the calculator on his phone so it’s not really an issue day to day.

Pretty much all university entry requirements already insist on maths and English gcse. Certainly for school leavers. So I don’t see this making any great difference to numbers.

I failed maths O level back in the day. I have a degree and am half way through a masters

The government should be doing more to make non-degree careers appealing to more people, not just as the "University rejects". There are some seriously skilled, well paid jobs that don't require a degree and that should be better recognised. That will help improve the numbers of young people going into them

Carrot, not just stick.

I think it’s a good thing.

A basic requirement for moving onto degree level surely.

My DS is severely dyslexic and has a very spiky profile. If he passes English it will be a miracle but he has great strengths in other areas - it would be incredibly unfair for him to unable to access university due to a poor English GCSE grade.

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

I don’t know anyone who has a degree but failed maths or English.

Are you asking about people who fail first time and then resit and pass, then get a degree? Or people who fail (once or more) and get on a degree course regardless?

In most educational systems I’ve had experience of, you’re required to take both subjects all the way through until you leave school, and they’re required for you to matriculate.

Dh went to uni 40 years ago with no English O level and got a very good class engineering degree. He can read/write and communicate perfectly well and is able to write detailed reports for his job (very senior engineer). I suspect he thought English was a waste of time and didn’t engage. 🤷‍♀️

Are the govt going to accept functional maths/English qualification as an alternative?

If they’re going to do that, they need to accept functional skills assessments as an alternative. There are talented people who never took GCSEs in the first place knocking around out there.

I can think of six people I know, of different generations, but all under 45, who missed big chunks of secondary school due to illness, mostly eating disorders. Also know a couple of home educated adults who took some combination of functional skills, international GED, access courses and continued from there.

My view is that if a child isn’t expected to pass maths and English with the equivalent of a c grade then they should be taking a reduced number of GCSEs to focus instead on maths and English. What good is taking history if you don’t have the English skills to write a decent essay.

Reduce to five GCSEs and have double the time spent on maths and English.

To be honest if you can't get a 4/c at English and maths you are likely to get through your degree. The standard is not that high! Most degrees require some numeracy (perhaps not English or languages) and even a maths degree requires you to write!

When you sign up for university you should have a decent chance of graduating, too many drop out because it's harder than they expected. 5 GCSEs including maths and English and 2 a levels (or equivalents) were in the 90's the minimum requirements to apply - I'm guessing they were watered down to get more entrants

I had a friend at sixth form for had to retake English four times to get his uni place. He was still retaking it the year after his alevels.

That said we couldn't get in to sixth form college without expected passes for maths and English at gcse. You were allowed to be resitting one of them alongside alevels or btec when it came to entry.

Do school sixth forms take students without maths and English passes?

I think there's a difference between "people who have failed a GCSE in maths and English" and "people not in possession of a Maths and English GCSE".
I'd actually slightly support the second option. The first is awful, and leaves no scope for people having a bad day, ND kids who need a bit more time or matring, or those who work better with functional skills rather than analysing Shakespeare.

@Sockpile

How do you think he'll get through his degree though? My dd is dyslexic too, she got a 6 at English gcse and still finds the written work tough, she's in a maths based discipline but still lots of writing

Kids today all want to be Youtubers, Influencers, Crypto champs, Footballers, Olympians and rappers. Whose actually going to do the normal mundane jobs in 20/30 years? 🙃

Personally I’m not against the move, this will stop kids getting a degree that will serve no benefit to them in the real world, that won’t help them get a job, yet still leaving with a mountain of debt.

I often recruit for entry level roles, but wouldn’t recruit any grad who had failed their gcse maths and English, it’s a core required skill.

I am worried for my ds, he has is in a more able and talented group for maths and science but struggles with English.

At school I loved English, did well in exams but struggled with maths