No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

I think there are perhaps (at least) 3 main points behind this suggestion. Firstly, they are not proposing a blanket ban on anyone without maths and English GCSE, they have already suggested there would be some exceptions and specifically mentioned mature students, but not said those exceptions would be necessarily limited to mature students only. Secondly, there is concern about the level of debt these students might be taking on doing a degree which has limited value in terms of improving employment prospects. Which leads on to point three, that any decent institution offering a qualification worth having, that is value for money, will already insist on maths and English at GCSE. So in a way, it is designed to protect some young people from getting into lots of debt to gain a worthless qualification from an institution that is only interested in getting tuition fees at whatever cost, while allowing that some people may not fit the strict profile and therefore be deserving of being considered an exception.

You absolutely do not have to fail anyone. You can devise an exam that everyone is able to pass if they know a set number of things. For example you can set a multiple choice vocabulary test of the 1000 most common nouns and verbs with a pass rate of 600. Straightforward comprehension. Writing is harder to assess - but give a choice of tasks and give students clear prompts about what to write: eg describe a given picture or write instructions on how to do an activity (with at least 5 steps).

Get 60% in a numeracy test - have a question bank and rotate around it, changing the exact numbers each time. Eg 1 year calculate 3% of 750 and the next calculate 7% of 250….

30% failure is shocking

Those schools should be addressed

My kids local company has a 84% pass rate at grade 4+

If a third of kids are failing the school should be answering questions as many schools don’t have these results

(Not a posh or selective area)

Namenic

What your suggesting is just making exams easier

No we should be teaching kids better

@DetailMouse

TBH if someone can't pass maths and English GCSE (with the access arrangements SN will bring) I'm not sure there'd be much value in any degree they achieved.

It feels like false pretences to accept such students onto the course to me.

I didn't pass maths. I got A's, Merits and Distinctions at college. I got a 2:1 at university. All without a maths GCSE. I've had a good career for 20 years that I wouldn't have been able to do without a degree. Is there no value in my degree then?

Honestly some of the comment on this thread are so ignorant!

Gcse grade 4 is not that hard. My dd is middle set and in grade 4 in year 9

Watapalava, the 30% is set nationally, so if the other schools that you want addressing all increase their pass rate, the pass rate at your kids' school will reduce. Very noble of you to suggest it.

Gcse grade 4 is not that hard. My dd is middle set and in grade 4 in year 9
For some children, grade 4 is "that hard". The grading profile means that 30% of students have to get grades 1-3.

@Sockpile

My DS is severely dyslexic and has a very spiky profile. If he passes English it will be a miracle but he has great strengths in other areas - it would be incredibly unfair for him to unable to access university due to a poor English GCSE grade.

This sounds very like my brother but absolutely wouldn't have managed uni. He took an apprenticeship, Became An electrician and then an electrical engineer and out earns everyone we know

@Watapalava

Gcse grade 4 is not that hard. My dd is middle set and in grade 4 in year 9

How incredibly crass 🙄

I hadn’t realised that 30% ‘have’ to fail

That’s ridiculous

Why isn’t it a set score and if all achieve then all pass? Why do some have to fail?

How incredibly crass 🙄
Well yes. And unless dd has done her gcse in year 9, not quite accurate.

To explain

I get that grade 4 may be hard for some

But if you struggle at grade 4, I wouldn’t think further study at degree level is in your best interest

My nephew graduated last year with a first in music. He never managed to pass GCSE maths. He has dyslexia and dyscalculia.

He wouldn't have been able to go to university without a loan. He wouldn't be able to do the career he's starting on now without the degree.

I do agree that university isn't and shouldn't be for everyone. And welcome more varied career and training paths. But I don't think preventing someone like my nephew from doing his music degree is fair.

Do we even need GCSE's at 16 years old anymore?

At one time, before everyone went to college or sixth form (and then onto Uni), GCSEs actually mattered for those leaving at 16 to get jobs.

But now, they're just a stepping stone to the next level of education, and seem a pretty poor stepping stone at that.

Would it not be better to have some kind of formal/recognised "progress test" at, say, age 14 or 15 (including a basic literacy and numeracy certificate), and then spend 3 or 4 years on, say, 5 A level subjects to give a broader range of A levels, with the option of taking something like AS levels at age 16 for those pupils heading off for college?

It's just that taking formal exams at age 16 is something that hasn't really changed in the past 50/60 years or so, yet over that period, the whole "what comes next" has changed out of all recognition.

Yes me! I failed GCSE maths. Went to a red brick uni. I also did a professional qualification whilst working full time. I earn £45k plus bonus so hasn't done me any harm.

Why do some have to fail?

That's how GCSEs are graded. They're based on the population of students taking them being a normal distribution. The score required for a grade 4 changes each year. Grade boundaries are different between exam boards.

Your daughter being on a grade 4 in year 9 is mostly meaningless. No one knows what grade they are until they sit an actual GCSE. Even then they only know the grade they'd get in that specific year.

Watapalava - the test that everyone can and should pass would not aim to distinguish between pupils and would not replace gcse. But it would be a minimum standard required for further study and be useful for everyday life. I expect some kids may be able to take it in year 9 then progress with gcses. But others may take more time and that’s ok.

So is a grade 4 one year different to a grade 4 next year (as it’s based on how clever the cohort is??)

If so that’s crazy!

Hercisback- if all grades are set on a normal distribution, there would be no grade inflation. Is grade 4 is set on the normal and the upper grades above are x points above it???

if all grades are set on a normal distribution, there would be no grade inflation

Yep. Slight adjustments are made each year for 'cleverness of cohort' determined by their KS2 results profile (this is transitioning now to National Reference Tests sat by a sample of Y11s in March of each year).

What there also isn't is grade deflation. Kids can be doing much worse and yet the same proportion will pass.

@Watapalava

To explain

I get that grade 4 may be hard for some

But if you struggle at grade 4, I wouldn’t think further study at degree level is in your best interest

So you don’t understand that people can be high ability in some subjects and cognitive processes and much less so in others?

The standard is supposed to be the same each year but as noble said earlier, there is evidence that the level of maths required to pass has dropped by a grade.

There's been grade inflation for the last two years with VAGs and TAGs. Prior to this all inflation is done by exam boards and ofqual.

@Watapalava

So is a grade 4 one year different to a grade 4 next year (as it’s based on how clever the cohort is??)

If so that’s crazy!

Yes

It is such a tough one. I think for STEM degrees, you would need Maths and English at GCSE as there is a need for essay writing as well as elements of maths. However maths is less of a requirement for most Humanities degrees.

Also just because someone does not achieve grade 4 at GCSE level does not necessarily mean they do not possess the functional skills required for an apprenticeship. I honestly do not know if the new style GCSE assesses analytical skills as opposed to functional skills.

Maybe it is time for young people to be offered the chance to sit functional skills alongside their GCSEs, therefore even if they did not reach Grade 4 standard at least they could show they have reached the required level to complete an apprenticeship or entry onto a level 2 BTEC qualification.