No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

@Svara

Kids who are struggling who have any sort of diagnosis should be getting special exam arrangements. We are hoping DS will get extra time in English. DS was asked if he had extra time after a recent mock exam and the teacher looked shocked that he didn't. He is year 11 so I assume it's too late now?

DS is in y10 and recently met an Ed Psych in school for an assessment. We don't know the results. It might be too late, but I would email the Senco now.

I think it’s not going to have much of an impact in practice as most universities require you to have passed them anyway. Certainly all graduate jobs do.

I'd like to know how the SLC will check on this. Will they be taking on admissions work and checking prior qualifications? I suspect it's an off the cuff comment without thinking through the implications of it would be operationalised.

That said, I support English and maths requirements (either GCSE or functional skills) as a minimum entry criteria for a degree. They are basic building blocks for learning.

DS is in y10 and recently met an Ed Psych in school for an assessment. We don't know the results.
It might be too late, but I would email the Senco now.
I don’t know if he needs extra time or not, just that he struggles based on his results compared with other subjects. The school would know much more than me, I didn't know any request should come from me not the school?

Have to say I didn’t encourage my son towards university. He did ok with GCSEs had to resit maths which he did first attempt. Did a year on a graphics and media type course and didn’t really work. He swopped to painting and decorating. Covid interfered with his plans but he is currently an apprentice with a local firm earning a good wage with regular rises. He’s taking driving lessons at the moment… they are allowing him to finish early to get an extra lesson a week in and have promised him a wage rise when he passes his test along with a bonus to help him buy a car. He is earning about the same as me each month at the moment but his wages will go up every year as he progresses through his apprenticeship. Trades are the way to go I think

So many assumptions.

Very low bar these days for a C grade GCSE
My DC has to study pythagoras, trig, simultaneous equations, and density amongst others for math GCSEs. When I see what it involves, a low bar does not come to mind. Obviously this PP is a whiz at maths. Whilst a friend who teaches HE statistics says even she’d struggle to pass GCSE math now. Thanks to Mr Gove’s reforms, GCSEs have become ridiculously hard and subsequently extremely stressful for the majority of students. Moreover, some people are brilliant at history, English, dramatic arts, etc but rubbish at math and others who are the opposite. Are they all to be denied a university education?

I struggle to believe that your child is not capable of getting a 4 in English language with plenty of good teaching
Teaching is underfunded with crowded classrooms, endless targets, teaching to the test, resources for SEN have been cut to the bone. The decade long austerity cuts had subsequent impacts on lower socio economic areas with kids going to school hungry. Just how is even a good teacher supposed to teach well under these circumstances? No one teaches in a vacuum.

This new target is so emblematic of our current government. All sound bites and no understanding of the actual issues. Just set the target and shift responsibility for trying to meet it to under funded schools and struggling families. The utter insensitivity of announcing it now after two years of pandemic, shocking teenage mental health, desperate families dealing with skyrocketing energy and petrol prices, inflation and cost of living increases post Brexit.

Not to mention how it reflects a Victorian era class-based approach to education. To those talking about vocations or apprenticeships, have you any idea of the dearth of well run apprenticeships? Or the massive reduction there’s been in funding for FE for vocational training? To me this policy is fine for families who can pay for private or for additional tuition and everyone else must go work in the factory. So much for levelling up.

I'd love to know what degree exists where english gcse wasn't a requirement. The mind boggles!

I failed the equivalent of maths GCSE and shock horror, I'm now a secondary school teacher so make of that what you will!
When I went to uni a pass in a science was an acceptable equivalent to maths and guess what? It was a very prestigious RG university as well! I also had a pass in arithmetic which I think they should bring back as a separate subject. (Scottish system) Surely that's enough for most general job areas? (Obviously not including the maths / science based ones!)
DD struggles with maths, but she's not had good teaching and it has affected her science subjects as well. The content in the 2016+ GCSEs is pretty hard compared to when I was at school. She will fly in English but it seems unfair to penalise kids who find these subjects challenging. We've had to pay for online tutoring and extra help has been offered at school) OTOH DS, (who was diagnosed autistic) sails through the maths work way above his year group. However, I think he may well struggle with English Lit. Both dc want to go to uni. Neither would be able to do so without a student loan.

Maths has always been a huge problem for me and I got an E on my maths exam. I also have a First Class Hons English degree. I was superset in everything but maths. Suspected dyscalclia (sp?) but my school were not interested in helping with a diagnosis. I think if they do bring this in then there needs to be a better system in place for identifying students who may have issues before they get to GCSE

@Svara

DS is in y10 and recently met an Ed Psych in school for an assessment. We don't know the results. It might be too late, but I would email the Senco now. I don’t know if he needs extra time or not, just that he struggles based on his results compared with other subjects. The school would know much more than me, I didn't know any request should come from me not the school?

I think it should have come from the school and would have been applied for early in y10. I believe without a diagnosis of some sort it's unlikely, but I am not an expert. It's ultimately up to the Ed Psych who I believe is employed by the local authority.

I failed the equivalent of maths GCSE and shock horror, I'm now a secondary school teacher so make of that what you will

It depends what subjects you teach.

I wonder how many teachers know how to discuss accurate use of statistics with their Head teacher when the pass mark in their class drops from 80% to 50% and they get criticised for it.

Mind you, you can get to be Prime Minister of this country and Education Secretary without being good at maths.
Looking at you, Gove and every school should be above average.

I don't have maths but do have English.
My English on mums net is usually v poor because I'm fighting my phone I can't type well on it and am reduce to a sort of pigeon English.

In RL my English and vocab is high but I cannot do maths. I've hugely benefitted from my degree it would have been dreadful to stop me from my degree because of maths.
Also ironic but I can't do ratio, struggle with all basic element's but I can invest.

It astonishes me on rare occasions when I talk to friends or colleagues about pension or saving rates..all of them have maths GCSE and some far higher but no one invests??!

Understand this is my small pool but I put our house on a saving program years ago that in I then read was used by experts and I invest. my maths friends and colleagues think it's something scary or about buying And selling stocks daily ect.
I often wonder if it's my openness And ability to do proper thorough research as taught by my degree that means I have investment averages 30 + % For myself and DC whilst they are languishing in 0.75 % ISAs and moaning about DC ISA not making money!!

There has never ever been proper Sen resource in the first place let alone cut to the bone now

Sen is an optional unit in the pgce ! Senco themselves are often clueless in Sen;

I’m sure back in the 1990s you needed 5 GCSEs including Maths and English to be allowed to study A-levels. I’m surprised that’s no longer a requirement. If you can’t read and write I don’t see how you can pass a degree?

I have a good degree despite having failed GCE O level Maths. This was obviously a long time ago and there was no entry requirement for it then for many non-science university degrees.
(I had a mental block about maths and the teaching wasn't great either at my all-girls grammar school but I didn't put much effort into it either.)
Anyway it was no hindrance to getting my degree or in my subsequent career (in finance!) as i quickly became very numerate on the job, so to speak.
OTOH English was my forte and i got top marks at O , A and S levels,. (And could blag my way in interviews.)

@cakeorwine

I failed the equivalent of maths GCSE and shock horror, I'm now a secondary school teacher so make of that what you will

It depends what subjects you teach.

I wonder how many teachers know how to discuss accurate use of statistics with their Head teacher when the pass mark in their class drops from 80% to 50% and they get criticised for it.

Mind you, you can get to be Prime Minister of this country and Education Secretary without being good at maths.
Looking at you, Gove and every school should be above average.

Well oddly enough the degree I took wouldn't have required any maths whatsoever. However as I stated, I did have arithmetic and this qualification has been enough to enable me to work out percentages, ratios, fractions and various other calculations needed in daily life admin, etc. My head has never criticised my class' pass rate, thanks very much! In our school we talk in terms of value added which requires a basic understanding of percentages. I think nowadays all teachers need to pass a separate maths / English test to get on to the PGCE.

@arethereanyleftatall

I'm on the fence here. The standard to pass gcse is really not very high at all on the one hand. It's basic. Not everyone is academic and that needs to be fine. But, I'm thinking there are so many ND people, probably far far more than are diagnosed, who are amazing at one thing and can't focus at all for another, so it's a shame to waste their talents.

I disagree that a pass at GCSE is a low standard. My dd is only doing the foundation paper for maths in the hope of scraping a 5, but more likely to get a 4. I am a graduate working in education and got an A at GCSE maths back in the day, and a lot of the maths she is doing is extremely complicated and I don't understand it! It also seems entirely theoretical with figures, equations and fractions etc and no sign of "real world" maths problems eg what is a 30% discount off this price or how would you calculate the area of this room. I'm pretty sure that most adults have no knowledge or need of doing prime factorisation of 1,000,000,000 (the task she was working on yesterday) in their daily lives or jobs. It would be much better to make the GCSE that "everyone needs" to be much more like the functional skills qualification with actual useful maths for day to day life.

If you can't pass English or Maths GCSE, then university isn't for you.

This is why some universities and some degree courses have become a laughing stock.

The push, some years ago, for at least 50% of young people to go to university, has compromised the value of a degree and minimised the value of a trade or practical subject.

Just to say you have a degree, but cannot communicate and calculate effectively, is pointless imo. Why have significant student debt for a degree that is not relevant to your job or career, or indeed, has been a hindrance to developing a career.

It’s very apparent that literacy and numeracy skills are regarded as less important than they once were. Perhaps it’s time to redress the balance.

In my day I think there was a Commercial maths option or General maths O-level. I was too set and did the General option which was suited for those going on to A-level. The other option was sat by the lower sets and I assume concentrated on maths used in day to day life.

@axolotlfloof
Early in year 10 was late 2020. Then they shut the schools yet again in 2021. He essentially wrote nothing by hand throughout school closures and work online was untimed. I don't have any evidence for the senco, other than dyslexic red flags that have always been dismissed as he is strong at reading and always just got by with writing. There would be many other kids falling through the cracks too.

@Foxyloxy1plus1

The push, some years ago, for at least 50% of young people to go to university, has compromised the value of a degree and minimised the value of a trade or practical subject.

Just to say you have a degree, but cannot communicate and calculate effectively, is pointless imo. Why have significant student debt for a degree that is not relevant to your job or career, or indeed, has been a hindrance to developing a career.

It’s very apparent that literacy and numeracy skills are regarded as less important than they once were. Perhaps it’s time to redress the balance.

Agree!

I would like to see exams made much more stringent so that only 10% attain the higher grades.

Those 10% then go to university and their fees are paid in full. This was the way it used to be in 50 years ago and it was much fairer.

It didn't matter if your parents were dukes or dustbin drivers, as long as you got the grades then your fees were paid.

Of course, that can only happen if a minority go to university. Start sending 50% and then it has to be a loan situation.

Raise the bar, jettison the loans and pay for those few who make that bar.

I have a first class honours degree, a distinction in my Masters and two professional qualifications and I failed 'O' level maths.

I've got a first class degree. Haven't got any GCSEs. I had to write an essay to show my writing skills and had enough experience in the field to get on my degree course. Am a valued member of my team and not having basic math has never been an issue. My English was good because of how much I read and my grammar skills dramatically increased through the 3 year course.

I really think that if you don't work in FE or secondary education, or haven't had a child working on these new Give GCSEs, you should not comment. These exams are not "basic" and they are not "easy".

If you are an employer, you won't yet have any takers of the post 2016 GCSEs through yet. My ds was the first year, and his year are now second year at uni.

Trust me, these are hard, very high in content and application, and very easy to fail. The "pass" mark for GCSE maths was 26 percent that first year, and yet still 40 odd percent of youngsters couldn't achieve that. These exams are skewed to identify the very high attainers getting level 9. They are crucifying youngsters who find the subject harder. It is scandalous and no doubt will swing back a bit over the next ten years, but please don't assume they are "easy" or "basic". They bloody aren't.