Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

373 replies

stregadelcucito · 23/02/2022 07:07

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

OP posts:
MintJulia · 23/02/2022 08:07

I've spent the last two weeks interviewing graduates. The standards of written English in some cases are dreadful, for people with degrees in business and marketing. It would take months to bring them up to a level I could trust them to write an email to a customer.

Many of the applicants are working in bars or gyms despite being graduates, with little hope of paying off their student loans.

For some people, university is not the right course and pretending it is (Blair) is not helpful.

SeasonFinale · 23/02/2022 08:07

The article I read said they would need at least a 4 in GCSE Maths and English OR at least 2 Es at A level. This tends to suggest that if they have a spikey profile that they should still be able to get at least 2 x E in the subjects in which they excel and still be able to access student loans.

Ylvamoon · 23/02/2022 08:08

Don't we need a certain level of education to attend university?
Surely having basic Maths and English GCSE should be an absolute minimum requirement in addition to more specific A levels.

But as it stands, universities need to be financially viable, so everyone is welcome. And totally undermining the higher education system.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
ghostmouse · 23/02/2022 08:09

I’ve got a degree but never passed my gcse maths, I took it five times and still failed. I find it incredibly hard.

I do have adhd and asd however but was not diagnosed until late on in life. I went back to college last year to try again but had to give up as my husband died.

Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 08:09

is this only going to effect uni degree courses or FE courses too?

If the issue is the cost to govt/paying back the loan, why don't they lower the interest rates charged, its 8% now, set to go higher still.
that makes it impossible for all but the very highest earners/the wealthy to pay them back.

To me, the simplest way is to control the quality of the courses.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 08:09

The issue is that only a small minority of student loans are being repaid to the taxpayer, so we have to tighten up the system. 8 out of 10 students do not pay back a penny, so this system is clearly not sustainable.

I agree it unfair for those that are capable but for whatever reason did not pass one subject on the day. But equally it is unfair to the taxpayers to be footing the bills for mickey mouse degrees that lead to poor outcomes and huge debts.

TonyBravo · 23/02/2022 08:11

As someone with dyscalculia and ADHD, I was able to sit my maths GCSE last year at college with a very patient teacher and came out with a level 5, it's achievable although it was bloody hard for me. Although to be honest as soon as I had finished the course I'm pretty sure I've forgotten every single thing I learnt. Blush

As for wanting people to do vocational degrees, they should start teaching them in secondary school.

I'm 34 with no idea what I want to do. I'm going to do an English degree because it's what I'm passionate about, it won't lead me anywhere though and I'll still likely end in a unskilled job for the rest of my life but with a 30k debt to my name. Hmm

Waxonwaxoff0 · 23/02/2022 08:12

@Kazzyhoward well yes, it's just an example of a well paid job that doesn't require further education.

MephistophelesApprentice · 23/02/2022 08:14

I'm an Admissions Officer at a fairly decent uni. 5 GCSEs at C+ including Maths and English is first filter.

We do have a 'widening participation' programme, so that people from traditionally disadvantaged backgrounds (care leavers, economically suppressed regions/groups, mature students without necessary O Levels) can still be made offers in certain circumstances.

Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 08:14

@Keepyourheadscrewedon My DD borrowed approx 45k to do a health degree (starting pay 26k) assuming a 2% pay rise p.a lol! she will stop paying back in 30 years time and will have paid back just over 50% of what she borrowed.

Its the interest payments that are preventing the loan being paid and private companies are creaming these off not the tax payer.

whosaidtha · 23/02/2022 08:14

I can't imagine that you would thrive in a degree if you can't achieve a 4 in English. Maths is probably less of an issue as there are degrees that don't touch maths. But almost every degree requires a level of essay writing, reading, research etc.

AgathaMystery · 23/02/2022 08:14

I failed my maths GCSE 4 times.

I have 2 degrees, both good degrees in competitive subjects. I reckon I am one of the very very few people doing my job in the U.K. without a GCSE maths. It has made not one bit of difference to my life.

FuzzyPenguin · 23/02/2022 08:15

I know it wont happen but I think it should be looked at on a case by case bases.

I have a degree but only D in maths (I retook it and got a D again) this hasn’t stopped me in my work my last 3 roles have been in management. Day to day my maths skills are fine in one of my roles I used to cash up and there was never any issues.

KittenKong · 23/02/2022 08:15

So they are saying that some universities allow entry to students with 2 E grades?

It’s just a huge money making business - get every kid to want to go to the ‘university experience’ and charge them £££.

When I was a student (in the 80s) it wasn’t assumed you went off to higher education - a fair amount of kids went to do diplomas at college or went to do an apprenticeship (or got a job). It wasn’t ‘uni or bust’.

When you met new people it wasn’t assumed that you had a degree. I worked in one place where the director wouldn’t interview people without a degree (I suppose she thought it meant something - but now everyone and their dog had a degree). Are they more ‘educated’? I don’t think so - not if the allow people with 2 Es to get into degree courses.

Kpo58 · 23/02/2022 08:15

I do agree with the not letting people who have failed English GCSE to do university courses. If you cannot write an essay, you have no way to complete a university course as they want 40,000 word essays and then it's a waste of everyone's time and money.

I do wish that there were more ways into careers though as so many of them don't really require a degree.

Namelessnancy · 23/02/2022 08:16

To the posters who think it's best not to send those to uni who cannot pass one or the other as they don't have the academic skills for uni I'm not sure you're really considering ND students. It's possible to be very academically able in one area and hopeless in another. To label these kids non academic and better skipping university could be a terrible waste of great potential. That said, to some extent it's a moot point as most unis already require a pass in both.

WouldIBeATwat · 23/02/2022 08:16

Have you seen the new letter grade GCSEs? I do not in any way agree they have a very low bar to get a grade 4.
Maybe 7 or 8 years ago, but not since the Gove reforms. I think GCSE English Lang is harder than the O level I took, and certainly measures different skills.

We aren’t all in England. Wink

123tigger · 23/02/2022 08:19

The government dosnt realise that students taking gcse have enough pressure. Without saying only take gcse once to get student loan. My son just about got his but has managed to get a masters in computer science. He thrived at university. Went in with poor a levels. Now working. I always looked at Mickey Mouse course as giving young people something to do. Keeping unemployment rates down.
Perhaps give young people more information about apprenticeships etc. But a lot of the time it’s getting some one to take you on show you trade. You can go to college but need experience as well. That’s where problem is unless you know someone.

Teenylittlefella · 23/02/2022 08:19

"I do agree with the not letting people who have failed English GCSE to do university courses. If you cannot write an essay, you have no way to complete a university course as they want 40,000 word essays and then it's a waste of everyone's time and money."

Bollocks! What art degree requires essay writing? What degree looking at software engineering or programming? What pure maths degree?

KylieCharlene · 23/02/2022 08:19

I got my degree back in 2002.
My highest maths GCSE grade is a D.
At secondary school age 16 I got a D and on re-sit alongside my A levels- again, a D.
Tbh all of my GCSEs were poor but it was quite easy to get on to A-level courses back then and then A-levels were ok- get into Uni.
No way I'd have got into Uni nowadays.

Teenylittlefella · 23/02/2022 08:20

@WouldIBeATwat
So Welsh GCSEs are just as easy as they were 7 or 8 years ago?

BonjourMabelle · 23/02/2022 08:20

I failed Maths GCSE, I didn't submit any of the coursework. I never re took it because at my college you could only re take if you got a D or above. I was put in a group with special needs kids so didn't go again. Years later I did functional skills in maths and English as part of an NVQ. I got all A's in my A level subjects and a Merit in a foundation year at college. I got a Distinction in my Foundation Degree. I did an apprenticeship and now for in a specialist clinical role in the NHS in my mid 30's. I have ASD that wasn't diagnosed until my 30's.

It's sad to see a lot of posters here consider people without a Math or English GCSE should be unable to attain a degree and contribute successfully to society. Many women with ASD aren't diagnosed until later in life so those saying allowances should be made for people with 'SEN', what will become of us?

HomeHomeInTheRange · 23/02/2022 08:21

I went to Uni when fees were free and we got a grant.

Everyone had to have O level (or CSE grade 1) English, Maths and a Language.

As with everything there needs to be adjustment for disability (including ND), but how far is it reasonable for a government to cash flow a (probably never-paid-off ) loan to students who are basically just staying in education longer rather than achieving the specialism and excellence pursued by the more academically able and inclined?

We need more young people with strong vocational skills, qualified trades. More apprenticeship qualifications and more young people earning decent wages for skilled trades and entrepreneurial businesses!

KittenKong · 23/02/2022 08:21

@Namelessnancy

To the posters who think it's best not to send those to uni who cannot pass one or the other as they don't have the academic skills for uni I'm not sure you're really considering ND students. It's possible to be very academically able in one area and hopeless in another. To label these kids non academic and better skipping university could be a terrible waste of great potential. That said, to some extent it's a moot point as most unis already require a pass in both.
But that’s not all cases though? I was at school with kids who were tagged as ‘not academic’ by the standards of the day. One boy on my class ended up at Cambridge - he was always in trouble at primary school for never being able to finish his work and had trouble reading.

Today - it’s assumed that a high % of kids go on to a degree course - are we getting smarter or are there just more degrees available in subjects that won’t necessarily lead to work? Is this for the benefit of the students or the colleges?

toomuchlaundry · 23/02/2022 08:22

Isn’t one of the problems that many student loans don’t get repaid, so the system isn’t working.

I thought you had to keep retaking Maths and English if you fail it now, and most jobs require you to have them.

When I went to university only about 10% of student population went, didn’t Blair want it to be 50%? It did need to be more accessible but surely degrees were always meant to be for those who are more academic.

Maybe, the type of degrees available need to be reduced. And the requirement to have a degree for certain jobs dropped.