No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

@Teenylittlefella

"I do agree with the not letting people who have failed English GCSE to do university courses. If you cannot write an essay, you have no way to complete a university course as they want 40,000 word essays and then it's a waste of everyone's time and money."

Bollocks! What art degree requires essay writing? What degree looking at software engineering or programming? What pure maths degree?

One of my degrees is in graphic design - and yes, you have to write essays.

There are specialist, world-class courses where students may not have these ‘conventional’ qualifications, while still being at the very top in their particular fields - conservatoires (Music, Dance etc) spring to mind. Their degrees are validated by universities for ‘administrative’ purposes, but it is the quality if the individual course at each conservatoire / college that makes them nationally and in some cases internationally renowned.

Do the resulting musicians and dancers earn high graduate wages -no. Would the world be poorer without them - yes.

@Teenylittlefella

"I do agree with the not letting people who have failed English GCSE to do university courses. If you cannot write an essay, you have no way to complete a university course as they want 40,000 word essays and then it's a waste of everyone's time and money."

Bollocks! What art degree requires essay writing? What degree looking at software engineering or programming? What pure maths degree?

Art degrees do require you to write essays. There is an element of art history in most degrees. I had to do several shorter essays for my art degree though the overall grade is based on portfolio/FMP rather than a dissertation.

Nor everyone can get a GCSE 4 or above in maths - yet are perfectly capable of doing a degree in a subject that does not require maths skills in anyway.

Why should they not be allowed to university?

I did physics with a second degree in computing and yes writing essays is part of both

Take coding ( computing is way more than coding ) - what you need to code is explained in the first instance in words
Comprehension and critical reading are key just to the very first stage

Or data analytics ( another part of computing/math ) you need to explain the outcome in words the none technical will understand

There may be corner cases where the rules fail but in the whole I think it's sensible

Making degrees for everyone means their academic focus must be diluted . People are different and should work to their strengths not be shoe horned into a degree path

I'm pretty shocked you can get into any university without a decent GCSE in maths and English.

I have a science degree. My university required maths, English and a foreign language, in addition to the science ones.

I guess it makes sense. I hate to think this might disproportionately affect certain groups. That said, there should be a bigger push on non degree jobs.

All you hear about is university and if your child does not go, you and they have some how failed. My dd is predicted to do well in all GCSE's except maths, this, has in part, been due to the continual lock downs and lack of teaching. The school continually talk about university careers and make a big deal out of naming which university their pupils have got into. You don't ever see the alternative routes congratulated.

It needs to be acceptable and talked about otherwise, it almost feels like a failure. Again it will be the rich, elite and private schools accessing university..

OP, does your child want to go to university or is this hypothetical at this stage?

This is a decision by the student loan company to stop offering loans - not the universities to stop admitting students without English and maths gcse. Have you even looked at university entry criteria before you get annoyed with a headline about loans? Many universities require a pass in English and maths already.

Focus on encouraging your child - you are worrying about something which might not even be an issue if they decide an alternate route to university.

@Teenylittlefella

My ds is autistic and has processing issues. He writes beautifully, excellent grammar, spelling and composition. He just can't write enough, even with extra time, to pass GCSE English. He did it 5 times. Unless they revisit GCSE English lang to make it more like it used to be, ie secretarial and composition skills rather than an unseen literature paper, I think this is very unfair for ND youngsters. Or artists who can't pass maths. It discriminates against hyperspecialist brains. My boy is an outstanding programmer. He eventually passed functional skills level 2 which counts as a GCSE equivalent for university entry. Presumably it wouldn't if this new scheme gets the go ahead.

Typical government half brained discriminatory idea that hasn't been thought through.

I agree. I work in FE. A lot of our young people passed English Lit, but the unknown factor, of each English language paper, throws so many of the students, so they repeatedly fail English language. It's discriminatory in terms of class / cultural knowledge too, IMO. For students with autism, it can also be hard to answer because of the need to put yourself in the character's 'shoes.'

I do also know a lot of learners who do not have good general 'thinking' skills who apply for uni though. Other paths are suggested for them.

I’m sure I’ve seen on many threads about Maths degrees that there is quite a lot of writing involved.

DH is an accountant, spends a large amount of time writing reports, it is not all about numbers

The government should be doing more to make non-degree careers appealing to more people, not just as the "University rejects". There are some seriously skilled, well paid jobs that don't require a degree and that should be better recognised. That will help improve the numbers of young people going into them

Yes ^ There is an almost default assumption (particularly in my DC school and the nearest alternative) that kids will do GCSEs - A levels - uni, almost without considering the alternatives. Not every 18 year old should go to uni, there are other options but they are really not informing or educating kids about alternatives.
Also there are university courses for things that used to be practical or apprentice based jobs when I'm sure learning while working is more beneficial as well as avoiding student debt.

There needs to be some flexibility in the system.

I'm dyslexic but my English teacher didn't believe dyslexia existed so I had no extra time and at that time it was up to the marker whether to make an allowance, so I took history as well.

Most universities wanted English and maths (Back in the days of O Levels) but most would also accept a similar subject so my history O Level was purely as back up in case I didn't get English.

As a PP said if you had a science O Level then that could count in lieu of maths.

There were also 'lower' maths qualifications eg CSE Commercial arithmetic, which didn't include algebra but teach you how to remove VAT from a price or stock take. The skills you would need in an office or a shop.

It also depends on what you want to do post degree, I wouldn't want a primary teacher who couldn't teach either maths or English but at secondary a teacher with the ability to teach their subject(s) I wouldn't be so bothered.

Nursing I want someone who can calculate a dose of a medication and write notes.

@SickAndTiredAgain

I’m surprised that many degrees allow entry from people who failed maths or English GCSE.

Me too. Is that really the case? I did my education aeons ago, but I got a D in Maths, which wasn't considered a pass, so did it again at college alongside my A levels and scraped a C so I could apply for degrees.

@flashbac

To be honest I'm fed up of getting job applications from people with degrees who can't do basic maths or write properly. It makes the degree meaningless. However if there is a disability or ND factor in the mix then allowances should be made to allow them to pass the required GCSEs.

I disagree, every bit of help should be available to assist in passing of the GCSE's or there should be an alternative, but no, a GCSE pass should not just be given.

The thing is - passing English lang GCSE now doesn't measure just those who can't "write essays". It is an unseen literature paper where students have to compare two extracts of text and comment on authorial skills at different levels. Then, yes, they write a story or a piece of persuasive writing, newspaper article or whatever depending on if you are looking at paper 1 or paper 2. It does NOT measure secretarial skills in the straightforward way that it used to (in my day it was comprehension, precis and story).

Many ND people have a lot of difficulty with comparison, inferring authorial intent etc as it's all speculative. Highly anxious NT kids likewise.

That doesn't mean they can't write an essay in untimed conditions on a subject they are passionate about.

The point I am making is, you can be completely literate and still fail English lang. I know because my son failed it 5 times.

One of my degrees is in graphic design - and yes, you have to write essays.

My DH is dyslexic. He signed up for an art degree on a distance learning course. He ended up not completing it because of the written element it involved.

Surely employers need to stop asking for degrees for so many jobs that don't need them?

My daughter is dyslexic and she struggles with maths.

She would like to study graphic design and if she’s prevented from doing this by not passing a gcse maths then that is just unfair.

She’s a total whizz with design packages like photoshop and illustrator but cannot do algebra to save her life.

I failed Maths 4 times at GCSE, I never managed a C. But I still have a Dual Major English and History Degree. I’ve also managed to have a successful career in IT for 25 years as well. So no I don’t think its right that a subject you aren’t very good at when you’re 16 should affect your whole life.

When I went to Uni you needed to have maths/english A-C but there were entry level courses for those who didn’t quite pass, does this mean those who get below a C or whatever the equivalent is now won’t have this opportunity any longer?

So you have two students. One goes to a private school, smaller class sizes, more 1:1 and parents can afford extra support if required. The other goes to a comprehensive. Large disruptive classes, no 1:1 and teacher spends most of the time sorting out disruptive pupils. Parents can't afford extra support. Student 1 - passes. Student 2 - fails. Isn't this making the whole education system elitist again?

I was student 2. I did well at English, but Maths was not my subject. I got an F the first time and an E the second. I went to University and studied English. Several years after graduating I decided I wanted to do a PGCE. However, I needed a C grade above in Maths. I enrolled myself in an evening class. I can honestly say I worked my socks off for that GCSE Maths grade and ended up with a B. Maths doesn't come easy to me and I can honesly say I spent more time studying for the GCSE than I did for my degree.

I agree that there needs to be more flexibility.

These days it would be quite hard to get onto a degree course without maths and English - it's actually quite hard to even get into a sixth form college to do A-levels where I am without both of those. Students often end up doing B-Tecs or other courses instead while they re-sit maths or English. Some places allow them to do A-levels alongside, but not all of them (or they aren't allowed to progress to the second year if they don't pass the resit), and that's a real shame for those students who have particular disabilities in either maths or English and are unlikely to ever pass. And then beyond that, many post-secondary courses also insist on passes in maths and English to get on the course, regardless of A-levels.

I agree with the focus on maths and English generally, but not to the extent that it totally limits the options of those who really aren't able to pass. They need further well-known and accepted, and easy to access, options like the functional skills tests; and to look individually at cases of people with severe dyslexia and dyscalculia who want to do degrees or jobs in fields where they can otherwise succeed without passing GCSE.

DW did a degree (French) in the 90s with a D in maths GCSE. Idk if that would be possible now.
When she did teacher training she had to sit an equivalent maths paper set by the university to get on the course as she didn't have the GCSE.

The UK educational system is built around the faulty assumption that exams are an accurate reflection of competence. Exam results are largely a reflection of your ability to take exams - a portion of your score is related to mastery of content, but a large part is your ability to problem solve a multiple choice question in a timed environment. I say this as someone who was VERY good at exams during school, but frequently didn’t grasp the applicability of what I was successfully regurgitating.

There are plenty of brilliant people who do not do well in test environments, including those with learning disabilities or anxiety. Exams can be a useful tool, but they shouldn’t be the final word on capabilities or future potential.