No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

8 out of 10 students do not pay back a penny

80% never pay back a penny? Absolutely not the case.

I have an A++ in English and English literature for O levels. Failed maths. Did two years of lower and upper six but didn’t sit the exam.
Subsequently I started a management course but dropped out. That was considered as an equivalent of A levels so did a degree in applied accounting. Then ACCA and CTA. Been in practice for 12 years. Didn’t have a student loan though, I worked as a carer during the day and went to evening classes.

Isn't the writing required for different subjects assessed within those subjects at GCSE? DS has high predicted grades in computer science, triple science, DT and maths but a 4/5 in English and is at risk of failing history. I thought his high grades in most subjects means he is capable of the writing required? It's just English and the writing in history he struggles with (enjoys the content).

DH has a D in Maths GCSE from the first few years they existed. He did a BA (Hons) with the Open University in his thirties, and took a Masters with distinction in his forties, from a bricks and mortar university.

I am saddened that bright but disadvantaged pupils might be further disadvantaged by a poor start to their academic careers, if this closes off university for them.

Having said that, I am often astonished at the low levels of functional literacy and numeracy of the new graduates we employ these days, and their general lack of fitness for work, compared with my peers thirty-plus years ago. Even good GCSEs don’t seem to signify anything much, in the workplace.

I failed Maths GCSE and went straight to Sixth Form to do A Levels, then a BSc, Post Grad Cert, and finally an MSc. All containing lots of work with statistics and now work in a role which requires a pretty high level of maths skills.
My brain clearly didn’t operate in the way that was required to pass the GCSE, but life has since demonstrated that I do obviously have those skills.

Clearly I was also crap at GCSE maths but smart enough to pass every exam of ACCA and CTA at first sitting. Also wrote my thesis in two weeks as I took two weeks annual leave and got a 2.1.
But because I was crap at GCSE maths, my children are tutored from an early age.

I’m surprised that many degrees allow entry from people who failed maths or English GCSE

Unfortunately this is the result of unis making so much money out of bums on seats and the ridiculous notion that practically everyone has to have a degree
Obvious exceptions apply for disabilities, but otherwise there's little point in pursuing HE without even basic skills, and no employer's going to care about a degree if the candidate can't even write or calculate - in fact it just downgrades the general value of them

What's needed IMO is far more vocational training for those without academic skills, but good luck expecting it to happen

Did you know you can do a BA course in circus skills?! How mad is that? No need to run away to join the circus anymore - it's on UCAS. Universities/degrees have become money making scams to some extent and the government do need to do something about it but I'd favour targeting the universities rather than the students.

Skills - what as in management or juggling? A friends sister was on the circus (high wire act). She just joined a circus…

@IronyFreeAnnie

I failed Maths GCSE and went straight to Sixth Form to do A Levels, then a BSc, Post Grad Cert, and finally an MSc. All containing lots of work with statistics and now work in a role which requires a pretty high level of maths skills. My brain clearly didn’t operate in the way that was required to pass the GCSE, but life has since demonstrated that I do obviously have those skills.

Thank you for sharing - great example of the limitations of exams to measure capabilities.

I listened to a brilliant interview with a woman who was always ‘bad’ at math in school/ failed multiple exams, but kept gravitating back because it interested her. She’s now a professor in a highly theoretical field of math where her different way of thinking is an asset. ‘Math’ is a big tent- there’s no way you can comprehensively assess competence in a single exam.

Presumably if you go back and get your GCSE/ equivalent level of Maths/ English you can still apply later in life?

If this is the case then to be honest I think it's reasonable.

It's great your child if amazing at Maths, but if they can't also read and write then even a Maths degree will not suit them really.

If they are smart enough to get a degree then both GCSE English and Maths should be doable. If it isn't, then degree level study will be difficult for them, as there is a heck of a lot of reading and writing involved, whichever subject you do.

I think the best way to cut down on people going to university would be better advice when at school.

Not sure what it is like now but when I was at school all that was mentioned was getting into sixth form and going to university for most. They wanted to be able to say that x number of people from the sixth form went onto university.

I went to university and while I wouldn't change it for the world I could still be where I am now as the career I'm in you can start as a school leaver (you just do an extra professional qualification on the job), on fact I would have more years of professional experience if I had done that.

Schools don't (or at least didn't when I was there ) highlight all the other opportunities there are for decent careers that don't require university.

If they had anyone remotely intelligent they wanted them to go on to university.

@toomuchlaundry

I’m sure I’ve seen on many threads about Maths degrees that there is quite a lot of writing involved.

DH is an accountant, spends a large amount of time writing reports, it is not all about numbers

I did a maths degree in the 80s. No essays involved whatsoever, lots of writing, but all equations.

I don't think English Language GCSE is 'fit for purpose' wrt core English skills for a scientist. It isn't comprehension and letter writing. It is language analysis and creative writing. Even the persuasive writing is a bit of a lottery as to whether you know anything much about the subject.

I think the Welsh system of 2 maths GCSEs would work well. A 'basic every day' maths, and then a harder maths as a requirement for science based A levels. Similarly a basic English and a harder English language for those wanting to do essay based subjects. The 'functional skills' papers hold that place, but aren't GCSEs and aren't in a standard offer at school.

The “crazy” sounding degree courses such as circus skills tend to be for people already working in the field and are studied alongside working in the industry. It’s a way of professionalising and recognising skills - courses like golf studies also fall into this area. There will be relatively few 18 year olds on the course except those who strongly know the area.

I teach sixth form and it is a funding requirement that students work towards resitting Math and English. Some never manage it though. I teach a vocational course - I have one student who screwed up his GCSEs completely. He came and did a level 2 course for a year and resat and passed English. Now he does an applied general (BTEC) course and an A level and is doing well - will probably come out with a good C at A level and two D*s at BTEC which is great considering his starting point. But I don’t think he’ll ever pass Maths, he’s done it six times already!

@IronyFreeAnnie

I failed Maths GCSE and went straight to Sixth Form to do A Levels, then a BSc, Post Grad Cert, and finally an MSc. All containing lots of work with statistics and now work in a role which requires a pretty high level of maths skills. My brain clearly didn’t operate in the way that was required to pass the GCSE, but life has since demonstrated that I do obviously have those skills.

That's great but you are the exception rather than the rule.

And to be honest, once you had done all that, signing up to do your GCSE Maths online before going to uni should have been a cinch.

As long as you can go back and do it at a future date, I think it's fine for universities to require it.

It’ll mainly discriminate against people with SENDs who are often gifted in one area but struggle in another. Silly way to focus on reducing numbers.

So you have two students. One goes to a private school, smaller class sizes, more 1:1 and parents can afford extra support if required. The other goes to a comprehensive. Large disruptive classes, no 1:1 and teacher spends most of the time sorting out disruptive pupils. Parents can't afford extra support. Student 1 - passes. Student 2 - fails. Isn't this making the whole education system elitist again?

While I agree with the point you’re making, I’m not sure what you mean by your last sentence. It’s not like it’s currently a completely fair system and this change will be what makes it elitist. It would take far more than reversing this change to level the playing field between the two pupils you describe.

Apprenticeships are becoming more a thing though. DH’s accountancy firm are taking on more students from A-levels rather than degree. You can be a qualified accountant and earning the respective salary at the same age as someone coming out of university who still has to do the qualification and who has a student debt to pay off.

My DS struggles with English (yet also chose gcse history because he finds it interesting). He knows he needs at least a 4 though, and is working hard to achieve it.

I think this is a good idea.

If necessary he will resit alongside A levels, but I am hoping he might get a 4 or a 5.
Kids who are struggling who have any sort of diagnosis should be getting special exam arrangements. We are hoping DS will get extra time in English.

Kids who are struggling who have any sort of diagnosis should be getting special exam arrangements. We are hoping DS will get extra time in English.
DS was asked if he had extra time after a recent mock exam and the teacher looked shocked that he didn't. He is year 11 so I assume it's too late now?

@axolotlfloof

My DS struggles with English (yet also chose gcse history because he finds it interesting). He knows he needs at least a 4 though, and is working hard to achieve it.

I think this is a good idea.

If necessary he will resit alongside A levels, but I am hoping he might get a 4 or a 5.
Kids who are struggling who have any sort of diagnosis should be getting special exam arrangements. We are hoping DS will get extra time in English.

So if he works really hard and his writing skills required for essays are fine but perhaps some of the theory which wouldn't affect a degree were not so good and he doesn't achieve a 4- you'd be able to fund him through university because he wouldn't be able to get a loan? Or be fine with the fact he couldn't embark on a career that required a degree because of an outdated and arbitrary grading system that doesn't suit all pupils?

I thought this was already the case. I had a friend that had to resit GCSE Maths as he got a D and couldn’t get into uni without a C or above. He was more than capable as he got a B the second time around (and has a professional job now) but it was a prerequisite.

I’m sure all the courses I looked at also required Maths and English Grade C or above.

I’m not against it tbh. I think if you struggle with English (not including those with dyslexia) you’d really struggle with the level of critical writing, dissertations, essays at uni. Maths I admit is a bit different as you could do a degree in a subject that doesn’t require any maths skills. You would however be expected to have a decent level of maths to pass through many graduate scheme assessments.

I think people like my friend who know they’re capable but probably just didn’t revise sufficiently for the exam would make the effort to resit if they were determined to go to uni.

There are so many careers/vocations that those that just scrape the grades to get into uni might enjoy more rather than potentially coming away with a lower class degree and struggling to find a job.

Lots of people seem to be focusing on English - which I do think is necessary for university - although a focus on English literature should be changed. I did English Language and English Literature as 2 separate O-levels, and it was English Language that counted.

But what about maths? What level of maths skills is needed?

About 70% of pupils get a Grade 4 or above in Maths

If you have to retake because you got less than a 4, you aren't that likely to get a 4 or above again, despite having to retake it again and again.

Should these pupils not be allowed to go to University to take any subject?

@ThatsNotMyGolem

Student numbers do need to be controlled though. We have too many graduates and not enough skilled labour. Higher education has become an absolute racket. Convincing young people that a degree in some Mickey Mouse subject, which will saddle them with £30k of debt, instead of doing a vocational course or apprenticeship for jobs we're crying out for.

It’s often the vocational courses targeted as Mickey Mouse degrees. With the current cost of higher education there isn’t a single degree worth the cost.

Limiting student number won’t make any difference to young people taking up vocational alternatives or apprenticeships because that would require the gov putting time and money into promoting them making them easily accessible to people through bursaries and providing more opportunities in different areas of the country.

The problem with the Conservatives is they have plenty of ideas for taking away and restricting opportunities and facilities but non for improving them.

I think I might agree that university wasn't for him if he couldn't achieve a 4 in English.
If he doesn't get a 4 it will be his writing skills, because he struggles (Dyspraxia and another medical condition), but also is capable of improvement.
There are lots of excellent, and cheaper, routes to a career.
He is excellent at maths, and good at science, but I think essay writing skills are important.