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Original poster

No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

373 replies

stregadelcucito · 23/02/2022 07:07

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

OP posts:
gogohm · 23/02/2022 07:36

@MaizeAmaze

You can retake and all universities do accept equivalents. They want to stop "universities" admitting youngsters who cannot complete the degree due to poor functional skills. The reason for the speech marks is that no decent university does, it's a handful of struggling institutions that want the tuition money rather than considering whether the student will get value for money!

SomethingYesterday · 23/02/2022 07:39

Two separate things …

I’m pretty old and failed Maths O’Level. Plenty of universities might have rejected me at the time, but the one I wanted to go to accepted people without Maths if they had a science O’Level. Which I just about managed. That was Cambridge. I have a degree, professional qualification, postgrad and research qualifications.

But I do think there should be some minimum entry requirements for university entry now. (With full flexibility in individual cases, of course.)

Teenylittlefella · 23/02/2022 07:41

My ds is autistic and has processing issues. He writes beautifully, excellent grammar, spelling and composition. He just can't write enough, even with extra time, to pass GCSE English. He did it 5 times. Unless they revisit GCSE English lang to make it more like it used to be, ie secretarial and composition skills rather than an unseen literature paper, I think this is very unfair for ND youngsters. Or artists who can't pass maths. It discriminates against hyperspecialist brains. My boy is an outstanding programmer.
He eventually passed functional skills level 2 which counts as a GCSE equivalent for university entry. Presumably it wouldn't if this new scheme gets the go ahead.

Typical government half brained discriminatory idea that hasn't been thought through.

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General education
Sockpile · 23/02/2022 07:42

@gogohm tbh it may not be an option for DS at 18 as at the moment (year 9) he’s so far behind due to a lack of SEN support.

There is a lot of technology available to help dyslexic students, if DS learns how to use this and has it available to him he would have a chance of gaining a degree. It often more difficult to get the support needed at secondary school level.

WouldIBeATwat · 23/02/2022 07:45

Very low bar these days for a C grade GCSE - it’s sadly no guarantee of either literacy or numeracy.

I’ve worked with plenty of people with degrees/Master’s degrees who can’t work out simple percentages (with or without a calculator) or write “would of” instead of “would have” in formal letters.

arethereanyleftatall · 23/02/2022 07:45

I'm on the fence here.
The standard to pass gcse is really not very high at all on the one hand. It's basic. Not everyone is academic and that needs to be fine.
But, I'm thinking there are so many ND people, probably far far more than are diagnosed, who are amazing at one thing and can't focus at all for another, so it's a shame to waste their talents.

User76745333 · 23/02/2022 07:46

Tbh if kids realised that they could earn £60k as a builder or £28k as an office worker in a graduate role I’m sure far more would decide that a degree isn’t all its cracked up to be and that the universities are money making organisations.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 23/02/2022 07:46

I think it's fair. I didn't go to university myself so I'm probably biased but I will not be encouraging DS to go unless he definitely wants a career where a degree is essential. At the moment he either wants to be a vet which obviously requires a degree, or work with computers which doesn't necessarily require one so we'll see.

DS's dad didn't go to uni either and earns £60k as a train driver.

RowanAlong · 23/02/2022 07:47

I think it seems sensible..these are basic skills!

SushiGo · 23/02/2022 07:50

@Teenylittlefella

My ds is autistic and has processing issues. He writes beautifully, excellent grammar, spelling and composition. He just can't write enough, even with extra time, to pass GCSE English. He did it 5 times. Unless they revisit GCSE English lang to make it more like it used to be, ie secretarial and composition skills rather than an unseen literature paper, I think this is very unfair for ND youngsters. Or artists who can't pass maths. It discriminates against hyperspecialist brains. My boy is an outstanding programmer. He eventually passed functional skills level 2 which counts as a GCSE equivalent for university entry. Presumably it wouldn't if this new scheme gets the go ahead.

Typical government half brained discriminatory idea that hasn't been thought through.

This is my concern about my autistic son! Glad to hear you found a solution and he was able to go to University.

In general - I don't understand the disdain for having a more educated population. Its a good thing that more of our young people are going to University, and it really doesn't matter if the jobs they go into afterwards don't require it. Those soft skills are still useful.

Ff10n · 23/02/2022 07:50

Wonder if they will set the limit at 4 or 5?
Thankfully DD did scrape a 5 in maths last year so this doesn't apply to her. But the idea of her so close to not being able to go to university at all, to study English Literature which she's fantastic at, is madness and feels really upsetting. She's on course to get perhaps A*AB in the three A-levels she's doing so is definitely of Russell Group calibre - but a maths fail could have made this impossible for her?!
GCSE Maths is hard, and if your brain doesn't work that way, you don't have to be stupid not to do that well in it.

arethereanyleftatall · 23/02/2022 07:53

@User76745333

Tbh if kids realised that they could earn £60k as a builder or £28k as an office worker in a graduate role I’m sure far more would decide that a degree isn’t all its cracked up to be and that the universities are money making organisations.
Yes, this. Remove the stigma with not going to university. It's fine to not be academic but good with your hands for example. There was a handyman on our local fb yesterday offering out his services at £50 per hour!!
Teenylittlefella · 23/02/2022 07:54

@WouldIBeATwat

Very low bar these days for a C grade GCSE - it’s sadly no guarantee of either literacy or numeracy.

I’ve worked with plenty of people with degrees/Master’s degrees who can’t work out simple percentages (with or without a calculator) or write “would of” instead of “would have” in formal letters.

Have you seen the new letter grade GCSEs? I do not in any way agree they have a very low bar to get a grade 4. Maybe 7 or 8 years ago, but not since the Gove reforms. I think GCSE English Lang is harder than the O level I took, and certainly measures different skills.
EdithWeston · 23/02/2022 07:54

I think with some workarounds for SEN, this is an excellent idea.

In practice, it's happening nearly everywhere already

daphnedoo12 · 23/02/2022 07:55

I'm a student nurse, I failed maths 3 times at GCSE. Always a D and so close to a C. I worked my way up the ranks in my job, gained the relevant qualifications and got a functional skill in maths.

Without my student loan, I wouldn't survive. DH does earn enough to keep us going, but I wouldn't be able to put my kids in childcare to enable to complete the degree.

I'll be a brilliant nurse, the fact that I failed maths doesn't reflect my maths skills - I'm actually good at it, just crap under exam conditions.

KittenKong · 23/02/2022 07:55

Maybe we need some kind of leavers cert that tries to get kids up to a decent level in English and maths.

Kazzyhoward · 23/02/2022 07:55

@Waxonwaxoff0

I think it's fair. I didn't go to university myself so I'm probably biased but I will not be encouraging DS to go unless he definitely wants a career where a degree is essential. At the moment he either wants to be a vet which obviously requires a degree, or work with computers which doesn't necessarily require one so we'll see.

DS's dad didn't go to uni either and earns £60k as a train driver.

You need GCSEs in English and Maths (or equivalent) to become a train driver!
Ogel · 23/02/2022 07:56

If GCSEs were actually an accurate reflection of capability then potentially, even then though the reason universities take on vast numbers of students is because they have to to stay financially afloat. Even with the tuition fee increase, they don't have more money it's just that the government subsidy went down proportionately. If the course numbers aren't constrained by a lab, placement etc then of course bums on seats beyond ideal levels are great. Surely it depends on the course anyway? Re: people unable to do basic maths, largely because the focus is on learning fancy and complex elements at the expense of revisiting the basics throughout school for those who need it

I do agree university shouldn't be seen as the only aspirational thing to do post school- straight to work, apprentiships, practical college course etc are all also great and should be promoted as just as viable; but to impose something based on this for those who do want to pursue something rather than address funding seems harsh. Its not just because people aren't capable that they don't always do well in GCSEs.

whysoserious123 · 23/02/2022 07:57

Resits

RoseRedRoseBlue · 23/02/2022 07:58

I got an ‘E’ in GCSE Maths. I have gone on to do a Bachelors, a Masters, a Post Grad Diploma and a Post Grad Certificate.

StopFeckingFaffing · 23/02/2022 08:00

I would be questioning the quality and value of any degree course that accepts students without GCSE Maths and English

I struggle to believe that your child is not capable of getting a 4 in English language with plenty of good teaching

Ogel · 23/02/2022 08:01

Also if it's just access to a student loan rather than a place that would be restricted then surprise surprise, the rich would still be able to go. If people don't see that as unfair, especially when there are many fundamental issues with schools disproportionately in poorer areas that are more likely to affect student attainment then what a shame.

bigbluebus · 23/02/2022 08:02

A friend of mine is a music teacher with a music degree and I was surprised to discover (when she was in her late 30's) that she had failed o level maths. She did sit GCSE maths when she was in her 40's just because she wanted to - not because she needed to.

Dmsandfloatydress · 23/02/2022 08:03

I have a degree and a masters with distinction from a russell group university. I do not have a GCSE in maths because I failed and did not resit. It's never been an issue in my life or career so this is a real shame !!

Ff10n · 23/02/2022 08:04

Have you seen the new letter grade GCSEs? I do not in any way agree they have a very low bar to get a grade 4.
Maybe 7 or 8 years ago, but not since the Gove reforms. I think GCSE English Lang is harder than the O level I took, and certainly measures different skills

Agree with this (assume you mean number grades in your first line). Astonishing amount of content; and I should know because I sat and revised for mocks with DD in lockdown this time last year. I got a B in maths in GCSE in the early 90s but I found the maths (and science actually) really hard. There is an awful lot more higher level content in the 9-1 exam specifications than there was 5+ years ago when it was letter grades.