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If Ukraine invasion happens - what impacts will we see here?

275 replies

saltedBubbly · 13/02/2022 01:26

So the Russian invasion of Ukraine is looking increasingly likely and imminent.

If it happens, UK and US will have to proceed with sanctions. Russia may well retaliate with cyber attacks and pipeline/ communications cable disruptions.

My friend's DH is ex military. He warned me today to make sure my car fuel and heating oil are topped up. He also recommended making sure I had cash as a cyber attack on the banks/internet is possible.

What other impacts do people think we may face? And what should we do to prep for them?

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westandinhistory · 14/02/2022 12:43

@BerylStrip tldr might have applied - this was the key point I wanted to make: The reason why we have not had a WW3 yet is due to better diplomacy and understanding of other cultures compared to the past. A lack of diplomacy and understanding and writing off other cultures as entirely despotic and suggesting that our own culture is free from despotism is heading towards war not away from it

BerylStrip · 14/02/2022 13:45

@westandinhistory

Appreciated the tl;dr, but I did read everything !

I agree that it has helped enormously that the West has made great strides in understanding other cultures. I am forever reminding people in Board Meetings that you simply cannot apply Western Standards to, say, Japan - a country I know a lot about and understand very well. That's by way of example.

But, where I take exception, is that you seem not to acknowledge the fact that you can criticise in this way because you live in a Western Democracy. If you criticised China, as a Chinese citizen, you might well find youself hauled off to a 're-education facility'. Putin is quite happy to make his own opponents disappear. So, whilst I hear what you say, I think my assessment of these realms as 'despotic' is entirely correct. We are not there yet - although given Ms Patel's bill about protests which was (thankfully) slung out by the Lords, I concede we are clearly heading down this road if we're not careful. But you can criticise, say, Johnson or Patel freely and without fear of being taken away silently and 're-educated'.

Posts saying (I paraphrase) 'we have to understand Russia's point of view of wanting satellite states which are in their orbit and not that of the West in order to feel safe' seem quite innocuous on the face of it. Firstly, what is it the Ukrainians want ? It seems to me they want to become part of the Western sphere - they are candidate members of both NATO and the EU. They don't want to be part of the Russian sphere - and they have previously sampled that offering. Should their wishes just be disregarded to appease Russia ? Where would you like to draw this line ? Latvia ? Estonia ? Finland ? Poland ? All of those countries satisfy the 'satellite states not in Russia's orbit' strategy above. The Baltic states in particular I'm sure are viewed as ripe for picking.

Perhaps the argument should be 'if you can't defend yourself then it's tough'. I can see there is a prima facie argument for this but it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. That argument would basically mean Russia could ride roughshod over pretty much all of Europe, piece by piece.

I do see, and accept, that Russia has painted itself into a corner. But I would note that this is something they have done to themselves. It's hard to see how the West can offer them a face saving way out of this. I suppose we could say to Ukraine "sorry, no NATO for you" and that might work, but it also sends a clear message that we will compromise so you don't have to. I think the analogy with playground bullies is a good one - they only respect people who stand up to them.

In terms of how to do this, it does not need to be militarily. The West has, for many years, taken Russian money in different ways. The US and UK have Russian oligarchs sitting pretty and spending large amounts of money (often on political donations) and buying up expensive property. Russian bigwigs educate their children at expensive schools in Switzerland, France and so on. A very clear message could be sent here. Cancel their visas, freeze their assets and send them all home. Cut off Russia's access to international banking and make it clear it'll be restored when they start adhering to a more diplomatic way of behaviour and then do it.

However, as things stand I fear that within a month we may well see Russia just steamroller into the Ukraine and then we are really in a bind. It doesn't help that the UK has fairly hopeless politicians at the moment, Biden seems bordering on senile (although we should be grateful it isn't Trump I suppose), Macron is playing to his home audience and the Germans are too frightened of having their gas cut off.

My personal view is that a war is not inevitable, but I fear that the West has neither the skill, the political will nor the cojones to stand up to Russia. Russia has already annexed Crimea with little more than some pious handwringing so why should they think this will play out any differently.

I mentioned this above somewhere, but I do not want war, of course I do not. I fear that it will become harder to avoid if difficult decisions are not taken within the next few days.

westandinhistory · 14/02/2022 15:42

Diplomacy is not just about cherry picking interesting parts of other cultures. This isn't about saying what we don't like about other cultures.

It is well known what Ukraine wants, it is less well understand what Russia wants it seems. You say "they want to annex Ukraine" but there have been other proposals as to what they want set out in this thread alone which you are ignoring, which are more likely.

My personal view is that a war is not inevitable, but I fear that the West has neither the skill, the political will nor the cojones to stand up to Russia you are still thinking in terms of brute force and taking the moral high ground?

Incidentally I think you have a rosy coloured view of our culture, the West's record on human rights, how much control we really have. We don't have much genuine democratic outcome other than picking the leader, which isn't really good enough.

westandinhistory · 14/02/2022 15:45

PS I don't think Macron is playing to the electorate, that is what the media are saying. If you look at Macron's track record with negotiation and relations with Russia it goes back a long way, and I think what Macron is saying at the moment is the most accurate representation by reference to history

And your idea of cutting off Russia's access re banking would be escalating not de-escalating

BerylStrip · 14/02/2022 16:16

@westandinhistory

Diplomacy is not just about cherry picking interesting parts of other cultures. This isn't about saying what we don't like about other cultures.

It is well known what Ukraine wants, it is less well understand what Russia wants it seems. You say "they want to annex Ukraine" but there have been other proposals as to what they want set out in this thread alone which you are ignoring, which are more likely.

My personal view is that a war is not inevitable, but I fear that the West has neither the skill, the political will nor the cojones to stand up to Russia you are still thinking in terms of brute force and taking the moral high ground?

Incidentally I think you have a rosy coloured view of our culture, the West's record on human rights, how much control we really have. We don't have much genuine democratic outcome other than picking the leader, which isn't really good enough.

Lots of 'whataboutism' there and very few solutions.
saltedBubbly · 15/02/2022 23:19

Various US news sources are reporting that Ukraine is undergoing a massive cyber attack, including the Ministry of Defence and banking

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Southerngal5 · 15/02/2022 23:46

I saw that, how scary for the poor Ukrainians, imagine the cold there at the moment, apparently they hit the energy networks as well.. My big fear is a banking attack & not having cash.. I thought things were getting resolved earlier today.. Maybe it's not the Russians, seems so obvious?

ABitBesottedWithMyDog · 16/02/2022 07:19

@saltedBubbly

Various US news sources are reporting that Ukraine is undergoing a massive cyber attack, including the Ministry of Defence and banking
US news sources can be relied on for one thing: to shrilly put the forward the case for American military action.

It's so crass. They were provably wrong about Putin invading Ukraine yesterday... so... a retraction? No... er... Russian hack3rZ!!!11

saltedBubbly · 17/02/2022 00:32

US news sources can be relied on for one thing: to shrilly put the forward the case for American military action.

It was reported on the BBC today.

It's so crass. They were provably wrong about Putin invading Ukraine yesterday... so... a retraction? No... er... Russian hack3rZ!!!11

Or they pre-empted Putin's attack which they said would be based on a false flag attack by letting him know that they knew, so he had no choice but to hold off.

None of us know the truth, but at the end of the day there was no invasion yesterday so surely that has to be a good thing?

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Southerngal5 · 17/02/2022 03:23

Not looking good tonight, following the guardians live feed. More than 7,000 more russian troops at the border, Russia had said they were withdrawing yet they're adding more & a new bridge has been built linking Belarus to ukraine that was picked up on a US satailíte..

Idroppedthescrewinthetuna · 17/02/2022 11:30

Things are not looking great this morning.
Ukraine President has said that joining NATO will guarantee the Country's security and although not easy there is no other path.

I have believed for the last month that this has all been willy waving! However as all eyes are on the situation the willy waving may become scarily violent. Nobody will back down. Too many egos are involved.

Southerngal5 · 17/02/2022 12:08

I just started a thread, it's ridiculously close to reaching boiling point...

saltedBubbly · 17/02/2022 22:49

I had hoped it was going quiet after the US called Putin's bluff.

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oadhkand · 18/02/2022 22:32

still not looking any better is it

TokyoSushi · 18/02/2022 22:35

Nope

blueshoes · 18/02/2022 23:11

It is looking very bad. On the brink of an invasion. Why isn't this more of a headline than Storm Eunice?

saltedBubbly · 19/02/2022 00:24

It's weird isn't it - I keep going to BBCNews for the latest and have to scroll through endless frenzy about Storm Eunice that didn't even affect where I live

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Footballsundays6777 · 19/02/2022 08:32

If you have a look at anything other than the BBC it’s the headline! CNN is good

TheFedUps · 19/02/2022 12:09

Can anyone explain the cyber attack thing? Why would they increase due to this potential conflict? How does this work?

BeyondMyWits · 19/02/2022 12:39

"Can anyone explain the cyber attack thing? Why would they increase due to this potential conflict? How does this work?"

"A friend of my enemy is my enemy"... so by supporting Ukraine we are already on the enemy side.

Russia uses cyber attacks in 2 ways, to spread chaos and for information gathering.

We ordinary folk are most frightened of the chaos aspect... banks/power/transport systems etc. Set all the traffic lights to green at the same time randomly in city centres. Traffic seizes up the network quickly. Turn off the power, prevent access to medical records, same for online banking, swamp the mobile phone system, they don't need to do much and chaos ensues. Do all these randomly and have the powers that be chasing their tails and paying less attention to what they are doing in Ukraine, it is more important to take care of our own. And they have lost no people... unlike ground war.

Information gathering (spying) is easier in the connected age. Rather than denying service, you use it, you hack, you spread misinformation from the inside without anyone knowing. (We trust our own sources, but if cyber attacked, they could be anyone telling us anything, so we no longer even "know what we know") Again, their people are thousands of miles away, spread throughout their country, so no losses, big effect.

Tigersonvaseline · 19/02/2022 12:58

I can't imagine many of the Russian soldiers are engaged with this at all. A top general has already come out And Said it's maddess.

Maybe this will finish the evil dictator off?

saltedBubbly · 19/02/2022 23:48

Re the cyber attack thing - the other thing the Russians are masters at is disinformation. There are people (possibly thousands of them) paid to agitate and spread bullshit online.

The Russians have supported the disinformation that brought us Brexit, they spread anti-vaccination lies, all sorts of crap designed to destabilise. And look around us - it is working, look at the US - they nearly had a full scale coup. I have no doubt Putin was pulling the strings there.

He's playing our societies like puppets

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saltedBubbly · 19/02/2022 23:55

@Tigersonvaseline

I can't imagine many of the Russian soldiers are engaged with this at all. A top general has already come out And Said it's maddess.

Maybe this will finish the evil dictator off?

Hadn't heard this - that's interesting.

I heard some analysis on the radio saying Russians were quite supportive of the invasion of Crimea, it boosted Putin's popularity and there were few casualties . But they're less likely to get behind a full scale invasion, particularly if Russian lives are lost.

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oadhkand · 21/02/2022 19:55

pretty much a done deal

saltedBubbly · 22/02/2022 00:58

Looks like Putin is playing his first move. Emergency COBRA meeting at 6:30am tomorrow to discuss sanctions. It must be serious if Boris is dragging his arse to a cobra at that time!

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